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  },
  "cells": [
    {
      "cell_type": "markdown",
      "metadata": {
        "id": "view-in-github",
        "colab_type": "text"
      },
      "source": [
        "<a href=\"https://colab.research.google.com/github/Vaibhavs10/insanely-fast-whisper/blob/main/infer_faster_whisper_large_v2.ipynb\" target=\"_parent\"><img src=\"https://colab.research.google.com/assets/colab-badge.svg\" alt=\"Open In Colab\"/></a>"
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "markdown",
      "source": [
        "A quick benchmark for the faster-whisper implementation for Automatic Speech Recognition! 🤗\n",
        "\n",
        "from yours truly - [Vaibhav (VB) Srivastav](https://twitter.com/reach_vb) 🤙"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "id": "uPcU_MJdVO9I"
      }
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "!pip install --upgrade -q faster-whisper ipython-autotime"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "C-3jAUK4or1d",
        "outputId": "a4b4679f-6085-44ab-ca7c-b353375356ed"
      },
      "execution_count": 1,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m1.5/1.5 MB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m19.6 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m31.0/31.0 MB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m39.7 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m35.7/35.7 MB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m16.1 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m302.0/302.0 kB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m21.7 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m3.8/3.8 MB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m58.3 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m6.2/6.2 MB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m110.1 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m46.0/46.0 kB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m5.8 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m295.0/295.0 kB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m26.2 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m1.6/1.6 MB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m64.5 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[2K     \u001b[90m━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━\u001b[0m \u001b[32m86.8/86.8 kB\u001b[0m \u001b[31m12.8 MB/s\u001b[0m eta \u001b[36m0:00:00\u001b[0m\n",
            "\u001b[?25h"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "%load_ext autotime"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "yqb4IGAnqThp",
        "outputId": "9a066cd0-9cad-4a5b-9fc7-6daa448e22db"
      },
      "execution_count": 2,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "time: 266 µs (started: 2023-10-18 18:58:18 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "markdown",
      "source": [
        "## Download a test file!\n",
        "\n",
        "The only fitting test audio to use for our benchmark would be [Lex interviewing Sam Altman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Guz73e6fw&t=8s). We'll use the audio file corresponding to his podcast. I uploaded it on a wee dataset on the hub [here](https://huggingface.co/datasets/reach-vb/random-audios/blob/main/sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac)."
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "id": "BY1FFJgIVmMs"
      }
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "!wget https://huggingface.co/datasets/reach-vb/random-audios/resolve/main/sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "emKT2iAGqXu5",
        "outputId": "bc24b2ab-a1d0-4ed3-d5d7-6effb7acb386"
      },
      "execution_count": 3,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "--2023-10-18 18:59:24--  https://huggingface.co/datasets/reach-vb/random-audios/resolve/main/sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac\n",
            "Resolving huggingface.co (huggingface.co)... 18.172.134.4, 18.172.134.88, 18.172.134.124, ...\n",
            "Connecting to huggingface.co (huggingface.co)|18.172.134.4|:443... connected.\n",
            "HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found\n",
            "Location: https://cdn-lfs.huggingface.co/repos/96/e4/96e4f69cd112b019dd764318570e47e5fe96de53d8c32a99d745e72d9086e355/b2fd593ce144a8d904cf49a4ed77ed06eb50644a053dddd280c81a3ef94fb60e?response-content-disposition=attachment%3B+filename*%3DUTF-8%27%27sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac%3B+filename%3D%22sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac%22%3B&response-content-type=audio%2Fx-flac&Expires=1697914764&Policy=eyJTdGF0ZW1lbnQiOlt7IkNvbmRpdGlvbiI6eyJEYXRlTGVzc1RoYW4iOnsiQVdTOkVwb2NoVGltZSI6MTY5NzkxNDc2NH19LCJSZXNvdXJjZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vY2RuLWxmcy5odWdnaW5nZmFjZS5jby9yZXBvcy85Ni9lNC85NmU0ZjY5Y2QxMTJiMDE5ZGQ3NjQzMTg1NzBlNDdlNWZlOTZkZTUzZDhjMzJhOTlkNzQ1ZTcyZDkwODZlMzU1L2IyZmQ1OTNjZTE0NGE4ZDkwNGNmNDlhNGVkNzdlZDA2ZWI1MDY0NGEwNTNkZGRkMjgwYzgxYTNlZjk0ZmI2MGU%7EcmVzcG9uc2UtY29udGVudC1kaXNwb3NpdGlvbj0qJnJlc3BvbnNlLWNvbnRlbnQtdHlwZT0qIn1dfQ__&Signature=M-GgO4ao7h7f1BMnjbPcowvK87Bkmq9Tda6g7dNlkdbmF1Ad0hCbayLkq%7EZrQpR8OAY6%7EztxZOpbZD9rlkf1lp9gpF1GZdC5vyX26edfxYtImHOL0EJP4%7EucmlArgT8iROj2qkYxjtEZFh3yI0OErc0ibMCTLmCxVfJTWqHxNeJTLvsVyVN1I2DDpl3DZw1Q3QyTj8LkEDjKMvYvObY4%7ETNlkfxo0kcHN5SEAjfrq6U-nwn-FitmnMudbMjssnNFvqzSuNNWqfD0ClsUtbhr6Wfd3C2kX-RFesU08Kix4NOURPxBOF%7EjUkHed1ch3OOgVuUl3yVqk0zzGtUkzVcwrA__&Key-Pair-Id=KVTP0A1DKRTAX [following]\n",
            "--2023-10-18 18:59:24--  https://cdn-lfs.huggingface.co/repos/96/e4/96e4f69cd112b019dd764318570e47e5fe96de53d8c32a99d745e72d9086e355/b2fd593ce144a8d904cf49a4ed77ed06eb50644a053dddd280c81a3ef94fb60e?response-content-disposition=attachment%3B+filename*%3DUTF-8%27%27sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac%3B+filename%3D%22sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac%22%3B&response-content-type=audio%2Fx-flac&Expires=1697914764&Policy=eyJTdGF0ZW1lbnQiOlt7IkNvbmRpdGlvbiI6eyJEYXRlTGVzc1RoYW4iOnsiQVdTOkVwb2NoVGltZSI6MTY5NzkxNDc2NH19LCJSZXNvdXJjZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vY2RuLWxmcy5odWdnaW5nZmFjZS5jby9yZXBvcy85Ni9lNC85NmU0ZjY5Y2QxMTJiMDE5ZGQ3NjQzMTg1NzBlNDdlNWZlOTZkZTUzZDhjMzJhOTlkNzQ1ZTcyZDkwODZlMzU1L2IyZmQ1OTNjZTE0NGE4ZDkwNGNmNDlhNGVkNzdlZDA2ZWI1MDY0NGEwNTNkZGRkMjgwYzgxYTNlZjk0ZmI2MGU%7EcmVzcG9uc2UtY29udGVudC1kaXNwb3NpdGlvbj0qJnJlc3BvbnNlLWNvbnRlbnQtdHlwZT0qIn1dfQ__&Signature=M-GgO4ao7h7f1BMnjbPcowvK87Bkmq9Tda6g7dNlkdbmF1Ad0hCbayLkq%7EZrQpR8OAY6%7EztxZOpbZD9rlkf1lp9gpF1GZdC5vyX26edfxYtImHOL0EJP4%7EucmlArgT8iROj2qkYxjtEZFh3yI0OErc0ibMCTLmCxVfJTWqHxNeJTLvsVyVN1I2DDpl3DZw1Q3QyTj8LkEDjKMvYvObY4%7ETNlkfxo0kcHN5SEAjfrq6U-nwn-FitmnMudbMjssnNFvqzSuNNWqfD0ClsUtbhr6Wfd3C2kX-RFesU08Kix4NOURPxBOF%7EjUkHed1ch3OOgVuUl3yVqk0zzGtUkzVcwrA__&Key-Pair-Id=KVTP0A1DKRTAX\n",
            "Resolving cdn-lfs.huggingface.co (cdn-lfs.huggingface.co)... 3.162.174.43, 3.162.174.92, 3.162.174.52, ...\n",
            "Connecting to cdn-lfs.huggingface.co (cdn-lfs.huggingface.co)|3.162.174.43|:443... connected.\n",
            "HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK\n",
            "Length: 351705020 (335M) [audio/x-flac]\n",
            "Saving to: ‘sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac’\n",
            "\n",
            "sam_altman_lex_podc 100%[===================>] 335.41M   259MB/s    in 1.3s    \n",
            "\n",
            "2023-10-18 18:59:26 (259 MB/s) - ‘sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac’ saved [351705020/351705020]\n",
            "\n",
            "time: 1.61 s (started: 2023-10-18 18:59:24 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "markdown",
      "source": [
        "## Half-Precision"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "id": "DNBvUbic_Gwi"
      }
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "execution_count": 4,
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/",
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          "referenced_widgets": [
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            "ef179a7f8e0f4b7a93d764906e9f15d6",
            "eb9be97ce66a4caa97fdedd8bf117ba5"
          ]
        },
        "id": "PzoWzQwboMpk",
        "outputId": "8ebdc57a-c7f1-4f0d-eb10-9cbc90238763"
      },
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading (…)37e8b/tokenizer.json:   0%|          | 0.00/2.20M [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
            ],
            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
              "version_minor": 0,
              "model_id": "84f156ad5d024f64ab9685a2276f8804"
            }
          },
          "metadata": {}
        },
        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading (…)08837e8b/config.json:   0%|          | 0.00/2.80k [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
            ],
            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
              "version_minor": 0,
              "model_id": "7c06d510db3f4703b6b56504d639a8a9"
            }
          },
          "metadata": {}
        },
        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading model.bin:   0%|          | 0.00/3.09G [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
            ],
            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
              "version_minor": 0,
              "model_id": "c17a20634d4e4cadaabeb6f81b9ac3b4"
            }
          },
          "metadata": {}
        },
        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading (…)37e8b/vocabulary.txt:   0%|          | 0.00/460k [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
            ],
            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
              "version_minor": 0,
              "model_id": "996532a279174161a3f7e49553759337"
            }
          },
          "metadata": {}
        },
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "time: 24.1 s (started: 2023-10-18 18:45:31 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ],
      "source": [
        "from faster_whisper import WhisperModel\n",
        "\n",
        "model_size = \"large-v2\"\n",
        "\n",
        "# Run on GPU with FP16\n",
        "model = WhisperModel(model_size, device=\"cuda\", compute_type=\"float16\")"
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "segments, info = model.transcribe(\"sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac\", beam_size=1)\n",
        "\n",
        "print(\"Detected language '%s' with probability %f\" % (info.language, info.language_probability))"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "6xwaBmkMrg5v",
        "outputId": "78845f25-1493-4a68-b223-a52fe2a88af7"
      },
      "execution_count": 5,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "Detected language 'en' with probability 1.000000\n",
            "time: 41.2 s (started: 2023-10-18 18:46:09 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "for segment in segments:\n",
        "    print(\"[%.2fs -> %.2fs] %s\" % (segment.start, segment.end, segment.text))"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "6fb6cf60qc1Y",
        "outputId": "ed558df0-542d-4e3a-bc48-558517e862ef"
      },
      "execution_count": 6,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "[0.00s -> 3.92s]  We have been a misunderstood and badly mocked org for a long time.\n",
            "[3.92s -> 11.44s]  Like when we started, we like announced the org at the end of 2015 and said we were going to work\n",
            "[11.44s -> 18.16s]  on AGI, like people thought we were batshit insane. You know, like I remember at the time\n",
            "[18.16s -> 27.04s]  a eminent AI scientist at a large industrial AI lab was like DMing individual reporters\n",
            "[27.04s -> 31.60s]  being like, you know, these people aren't very good and it's ridiculous to talk about AGI and I\n",
            "[31.60s -> 36.08s]  can't believe you're giving them time of day and it's like that was the level of like pettiness\n",
            "[36.08s -> 39.52s]  and rancor in the field at a new group of people saying we're going to try to build AGI.\n",
            "[40.24s -> 44.72s]  So OpenAI and DeepMind was a small collection of folks who were brave enough to talk\n",
            "[45.76s -> 50.16s]  about AGI in the face of mockery.\n",
            "[50.88s -> 52.16s]  We don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[53.04s -> 54.40s]  Don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[54.64s -> 62.16s]  The following is a conversation with Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, the company behind GPT-4,\n",
            "[62.16s -> 68.88s]  JAD-GPT, DALI, Codex and many other AI technologies which both individually and together\n",
            "[68.88s -> 73.52s]  constitute some of the greatest breakthroughs in the history of artificial intelligence,\n",
            "[73.52s -> 80.08s]  computing and humanity in general. Please allow me to say a few words about the possibilities\n",
            "[80.16s -> 84.64s]  and the dangers of AI in this current moment in the history of human civilization.\n",
            "[85.36s -> 87.28s]  I believe it is a critical moment.\n",
            "[87.28s -> 91.12s]  We stand on the precipice of fundamental societal transformation\n",
            "[91.12s -> 96.40s]  where soon, nobody knows when, but many including me believe it's within our lifetime.\n",
            "[97.12s -> 103.28s]  The collective intelligence of the human species begins to pale in comparison by many orders of\n",
            "[103.60s -> 110.80s]  comparison by many orders of magnitude to the general superintelligence in the AI systems we\n",
            "[110.80s -> 117.92s]  build and deploy at scale. This is both exciting and terrifying.\n",
            "[118.64s -> 124.88s]  It is exciting because of the innumerable applications we know and don't yet know\n",
            "[124.88s -> 131.20s]  that will empower humans to create, to flourish, to escape the widespread poverty and suffering\n",
            "[131.20s -> 138.40s]  that exists in the world today and to succeed in that old all too human pursuit of happiness.\n",
            "[139.60s -> 146.00s]  It is terrifying because of the power that superintelligent AGI wields to destroy human\n",
            "[146.00s -> 152.56s]  civilization intentionally or unintentionally. The power to suffocate the human spirit\n",
            "[153.12s -> 160.48s]  in the totalitarian way of George Orwell's 1984 or the pleasure-fueled mass hysteria\n",
            "[160.48s -> 166.16s]  of Brave New World where as Huxley saw it, people come to love their oppression,\n",
            "[166.80s -> 175.20s]  to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. That is why these conversations\n",
            "[175.20s -> 181.20s]  with the leaders, engineers, and philosophers, both optimists and cynics, is important now.\n",
            "[182.80s -> 188.24s]  These are not merely technical conversations about AI. These are conversations about power,\n",
            "[188.24s -> 193.20s]  about companies, institutions, and political systems that deploy, check, and balance this power.\n",
            "[193.92s -> 200.48s]  About distributed economic systems that incentivize the safety and human alignment of this power.\n",
            "[201.20s -> 207.52s]  About the psychology of the engineers and leaders that deploy AGI and about the history of human\n",
            "[207.52s -> 217.28s]  nature, our capacity for good and evil at scale. I'm deeply honored to have gotten to know and\n",
            "[217.60s -> 223.84s]  spoken with on and off the mic with many folks who now work at OpenAI, including Sam Altman,\n",
            "[223.84s -> 232.64s]  Greg Brockman, Ilya Sutskever, Wojciech Zaremba, Andrei Karpathy, Jakub Pachacki, and many others.\n",
            "[233.36s -> 239.52s]  It means the world that Sam has been totally open with me, willing to have multiple conversations,\n",
            "[239.52s -> 245.44s]  including challenging ones, on and off the mic. I will continue to have these conversations\n",
            "[245.44s -> 251.84s]  to both celebrate the incredible accomplishments of the AI community and to steel man the critical\n",
            "[251.84s -> 258.56s]  perspective on major decisions various companies and leaders make, always with the goal of trying\n",
            "[258.56s -> 265.84s]  to help in my small way. If I fail, I will work hard to improve. I love you all.\n",
            "[267.12s -> 272.16s]  This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.\n",
            "[272.24s -> 275.52s]  And now, dear friends, here's Sam Altman.\n",
            "[276.80s -> 282.48s]  High level, what is GPT for? How does it work and what to use most amazing about it?\n",
            "[283.12s -> 290.32s]  It's a system that we'll look back at and say was a very early AI. And it's slow, it's buggy,\n",
            "[290.96s -> 295.44s]  it doesn't do a lot of things very well, but neither did the very earliest computers.\n",
            "[296.56s -> 301.92s]  And they still pointed a path to something that was going to be really important in our lives,\n",
            "[302.24s -> 304.16s]  it took a few decades to evolve.\n",
            "[304.16s -> 309.44s]  Do you think this is a pivotal moment? Like, out of all the versions of GPT, 50 years from now,\n",
            "[310.40s -> 315.92s]  when they look back on an early system that was really kind of a leap, you know, in a Wikipedia\n",
            "[315.92s -> 320.48s]  page about the history of artificial intelligence, which of the GPTs would they put?\n",
            "[320.48s -> 325.68s]  That is a good question. I sort of think of progress as this continual exponential. It's not\n",
            "[325.68s -> 331.52s]  like we could say here was the moment where AI went from not happening to happening. And I'd\n",
            "[331.68s -> 336.16s]  a very hard time pinpointing a single thing. I think it's this very continual curve.\n",
            "[337.28s -> 342.88s]  Will the history books write about GPT 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 7? That's for them to decide. I don't\n",
            "[342.88s -> 349.60s]  really know. I think if I had to pick some moment from what we've seen so far, I'd sort of pick\n",
            "[349.60s -> 354.96s]  Chad GPT. It wasn't the underlying model that mattered, it was the usability of it, both the\n",
            "[354.96s -> 362.32s]  RLHF and the interface to it. What is Chad GPT? What is RLHF? Reinforcement Learning with Human\n",
            "[362.32s -> 369.60s]  Feedback. What was that little magic ingredient to the dish that made it so much more delicious?\n",
            "[370.48s -> 377.12s]  So we trained these models on a lot of text data. And in that process, they learned the underlying\n",
            "[378.08s -> 384.00s]  something about the underlying representations of what's in here or in there. And they can do\n",
            "[384.96s -> 389.76s]  amazing things. But when you first play with that base model that we call it after you finish\n",
            "[389.76s -> 395.12s]  training, it can do very well on evals, it can pass tests, it can do a lot of, you know, there's\n",
            "[395.12s -> 402.64s]  knowledge in there. But it's not very useful. Or at least it's not easy to use, let's say. And RLHF\n",
            "[402.64s -> 409.04s]  is how we take some human feedback. The simplest version of this is show two outputs, ask which\n",
            "[409.04s -> 414.48s]  one is better than the other, which one the human raters prefer, and then feed that back into the\n",
            "[414.48s -> 420.32s]  model with reinforcement learning. And that process works remarkably well with, in my opinion,\n",
            "[420.32s -> 427.44s]  remarkably little data to make the model more useful. So RLHF is how we align the model to\n",
            "[427.44s -> 434.08s]  what humans want it to do. So there's a giant language model that's trained on a giant data set\n",
            "[434.08s -> 438.08s]  to create this kind of background wisdom knowledge that's contained within the internet.\n",
            "[439.04s -> 445.68s]  And then somehow adding a little bit of human guidance on top of it through this process\n",
            "[446.72s -> 449.20s]  makes it seem so much more awesome.\n",
            "[450.48s -> 454.24s]  Maybe just because it's much easier to use. It's much easier to get what you want. You get it\n",
            "[454.24s -> 458.88s]  right more often the first time. And ease of use matters a lot, even if the base capability was\n",
            "[458.88s -> 460.08s]  there before.\n",
            "[460.08s -> 467.68s]  And like a feeling like it understood the question you're asking. Or like it feels like you're\n",
            "[467.84s -> 468.96s]  kind of on the same page.\n",
            "[468.96s -> 469.84s]  It's trying to help you.\n",
            "[470.56s -> 471.84s]  It's the feeling of alignment.\n",
            "[471.84s -> 472.08s]  Yes.\n",
            "[472.08s -> 477.04s]  I mean, that could be a more technical term for it. And you're saying that not much data is\n",
            "[477.04s -> 479.52s]  required for that, not much human supervision is required for that.\n",
            "[479.52s -> 486.64s]  To be fair, we understand the science of this part at a much earlier stage than we do the\n",
            "[486.64s -> 490.48s]  science of creating these large pre-trained models in the first place. But yes, less data,\n",
            "[490.48s -> 491.36s]  much less data.\n",
            "[491.36s -> 495.68s]  That's so interesting. The science of human guidance.\n",
            "[497.92s -> 501.92s]  That's a very interesting science. And it's going to be a very important science to understand\n",
            "[502.64s -> 508.88s]  how to make it usable, how to make it wise, how to make it ethical, how to make it aligned in\n",
            "[508.88s -> 516.08s]  terms of all the kinds of stuff we think about. And it matters which are the humans and what is\n",
            "[516.08s -> 520.32s]  the process of incorporating that human feedback and what are you asking the humans. Is it two\n",
            "[520.32s -> 525.68s]  things? Are you asking them to rank things? What aspects are you letting or asking the\n",
            "[525.68s -> 534.48s]  humans to focus in on? It's really fascinating. But what is the dataset it's trained on? Can you\n",
            "[534.48s -> 537.12s]  kind of loosely speak to the enormity of this dataset?\n",
            "[537.12s -> 538.00s]  The pre-training dataset?\n",
            "[538.00s -> 539.52s]  The pre-training dataset, I apologize.\n",
            "[540.24s -> 543.76s]  We spend a huge amount of effort pulling that together from many different sources.\n",
            "[544.48s -> 551.44s]  There's a lot of, there are open source databases of information. We get stuff via partnerships.\n",
            "[551.44s -> 555.92s]  There's things on the internet. A lot of our work is building a great dataset.\n",
            "[557.04s -> 559.60s]  How much of it is the memes subreddit?\n",
            "[559.60s -> 562.16s]  Not very much. Maybe it'd be more fun if it were more.\n",
            "[563.52s -> 568.56s]  So some of it is Reddit. Some of it is news sources, a huge number of newspapers.\n",
            "[569.20s -> 570.48s]  There's the general web.\n",
            "[570.96s -> 574.32s]  There's a lot of content in the world, more than I think most people think.\n",
            "[574.32s -> 582.24s]  Yeah, there is. Like too much. Where the task is not to find stuff but to filter out stuff, right?\n",
            "[584.08s -> 587.68s]  Is there a magic to that? Because there seems to be several components to solve.\n",
            "[589.76s -> 594.64s]  The design of the, you could say, algorithms, so like the architecture of the neural networks,\n",
            "[594.64s -> 598.00s]  maybe the size of the neural network. There's the selection of the data.\n",
            "[598.96s -> 605.28s]  There's the human supervised aspect of it with RL with human feedback.\n",
            "[606.00s -> 610.72s]  Yeah, I think one thing that is not that well understood about creation of this final product,\n",
            "[610.72s -> 615.84s]  like what it takes to make GPT-4, the version of it we actually ship out that you get to use\n",
            "[615.84s -> 621.92s]  inside of chat-gpt, the number of pieces that have to all come together and then we have to\n",
            "[622.00s -> 627.36s]  figure out either new ideas or just execute existing ideas really well at every stage of\n",
            "[627.36s -> 631.92s]  this pipeline, there's quite a lot that goes into it. So there's a lot of problem solving.\n",
            "[632.88s -> 640.56s]  You've already said for GPT-4 in the blog post and in general, there's already kind of a maturity\n",
            "[640.56s -> 646.88s]  that's happening on some of these steps, like being able to predict before doing the full training\n",
            "[646.88s -> 650.72s]  of how the model will behave. Isn't that so remarkable, by the way, that there's like\n",
            "[651.68s -> 656.80s]  a law of science that lets you predict for these inputs, here's what's gonna come out the other\n",
            "[656.80s -> 661.92s]  end. Here's the level of intelligence you can expect. Is it close to a science or is it still,\n",
            "[663.52s -> 668.00s]  because you said the word law and science, which are very ambitious terms.\n",
            "[668.00s -> 669.12s]  Close to, I said.\n",
            "[669.12s -> 671.52s]  Close to, right. Be accurate, yes.\n",
            "[671.52s -> 675.52s]  I'll say it's way more scientific than I ever would have dared to imagine.\n",
            "[675.52s -> 683.12s]  So you can really know the peculiar characteristics of the fully trained system from just a little bit\n",
            "[683.12s -> 683.60s]  of training.\n",
            "[684.16s -> 688.40s]  Like any new branch of science, we're gonna discover new things that don't fit the data\n",
            "[688.40s -> 694.08s]  and have to come up with better explanations and that is the ongoing process of discovery in science.\n",
            "[694.08s -> 700.16s]  But with what we know now, even what we had in that GPT-4 blog post, I think we should all just\n",
            "[700.16s -> 704.32s]  be in awe of how amazing it is that we can even predict to this current level.\n",
            "[704.32s -> 709.60s]  Yeah, you can look at a one-year-old baby and predict how it's going to do on the SATs,\n",
            "[709.60s -> 712.56s]  I don't know, seemingly an equivalent one.\n",
            "[712.56s -> 717.36s]  But because here we can actually in detail introspect various aspects of the system,\n",
            "[717.36s -> 718.00s]  you can predict.\n",
            "[718.80s -> 726.00s]  That said, just to jump around, you said the language model that is GPT-4, it learns,\n",
            "[726.00s -> 727.28s]  in quotes, something.\n",
            "[727.44s -> 735.36s]  In terms of science and art and so on, is there within OpenAI, within folks like yourself and\n",
            "[735.36s -> 741.20s]  Ilyas Eskever and the engineers, a deeper and deeper understanding of what that something is?\n",
            "[742.16s -> 746.48s]  Or is it still a kind of beautiful, magical mystery?\n",
            "[747.84s -> 750.40s]  Well, there's all these different evals that we could talk about.\n",
            "[751.44s -> 753.04s]  What's an eval?\n",
            "[753.44s -> 759.28s]  Like how we measure a model as we're training it, after we've trained it, and say, how good\n",
            "[759.28s -> 760.72s]  is this at some set of tasks?\n",
            "[760.72s -> 765.84s]  And also just in a small tangent, thank you for sort of open sourcing the evaluation process.\n",
            "[765.84s -> 767.52s]  Yeah, I think that'll be really helpful.\n",
            "[770.32s -> 776.72s]  But the one that really matters is, we pour all of this effort and money and time into this thing,\n",
            "[777.28s -> 781.12s]  and then what it comes out with, how useful is that to people?\n",
            "[781.12s -> 782.56s]  How much delight does that bring people?\n",
            "[782.64s -> 787.36s]  How much does that help them create a much better world, new science, new products, new services,\n",
            "[787.36s -> 787.76s]  whatever?\n",
            "[788.48s -> 791.04s]  And that's the one that matters.\n",
            "[791.92s -> 797.04s]  And understanding for a particular set of inputs, like how much value and utility to\n",
            "[797.04s -> 800.64s]  provide to people, I think we are understanding that better.\n",
            "[803.84s -> 808.40s]  Do we understand everything about why the model does one thing and not one other thing?\n",
            "[808.40s -> 816.40s]  Certainly not always, but I would say we are pushing back the fog of war more and more.\n",
            "[816.40s -> 821.68s]  And it took a lot of understanding to make GPT-4, for example.\n",
            "[821.68s -> 824.64s]  But I'm not even sure we can ever fully understand.\n",
            "[824.64s -> 827.84s]  Like you said, you would understand by asking questions, essentially.\n",
            "[827.84s -> 834.32s]  Because it's compressing all of the web, like a huge sloth of the web, into a small number\n",
            "[834.40s -> 840.00s]  of parameters, into one organized black box that is human wisdom.\n",
            "[841.12s -> 841.68s]  What is that?\n",
            "[841.68s -> 842.80s]  Human knowledge, let's say.\n",
            "[843.44s -> 844.08s]  Human knowledge.\n",
            "[845.44s -> 846.32s]  It's a good difference.\n",
            "[848.08s -> 850.24s]  Is there a difference between knowledge?\n",
            "[850.24s -> 851.76s]  So there's facts and there's wisdom.\n",
            "[851.76s -> 854.96s]  And I feel like GPT-4 can be also full of wisdom.\n",
            "[854.96s -> 856.64s]  What's the leap from facts to wisdom?\n",
            "[856.64s -> 862.64s]  You know, a funny thing about the way we're training these models is I suspect too much\n",
            "[862.64s -> 869.60s]  of the processing power, for lack of a better word, is going into using the model as a database\n",
            "[869.60s -> 871.44s]  instead of using the model as a reasoning engine.\n",
            "[872.40s -> 876.72s]  The thing that's really amazing about this system is that for some definition of reasoning – and\n",
            "[876.72s -> 880.16s]  we could of course quibble about it, and there's plenty for which definitions this wouldn't be\n",
            "[880.16s -> 884.72s]  accurate – but for some definition, it can do some kind of reasoning.\n",
            "[884.72s -> 890.16s]  And maybe the scholars and the experts and the armchair quarterbacks on Twitter would say,\n",
            "[890.16s -> 893.20s]  no it can't, you're misusing the word, you're, you know, whatever, whatever.\n",
            "[893.20s -> 897.76s]  But I think most people who have used the system would say, okay, it's doing something in this\n",
            "[897.76s -> 898.24s]  direction.\n",
            "[901.44s -> 905.68s]  And I think that's remarkable and the thing that's most exciting.\n",
            "[906.80s -> 915.52s]  And somehow out of ingesting human knowledge, it's coming up with this reasoning capability,\n",
            "[915.52s -> 916.88s]  however we want to talk about that.\n",
            "[917.52s -> 922.40s]  Now, in some senses, I think that will be additive to human wisdom.\n",
            "[922.96s -> 927.44s]  And in some other senses, you can use GPT-4 for all kinds of things and say that it appears\n",
            "[927.44s -> 928.88s]  that there's no wisdom in here whatsoever.\n",
            "[928.88s -> 934.40s]  LUIS Yeah, at least in interaction with humans, it seems to possess wisdom, especially when\n",
            "[934.40s -> 937.60s]  there's a continuous interaction of multiple prompts.\n",
            "[937.60s -> 946.40s]  So I think what on the Chad GPT site, it says the dialogue format makes it possible for Chad\n",
            "[946.48s -> 951.68s]  GPT to answer follow-up questions, admit its mistakes, challenge incorrect premises, and\n",
            "[951.68s -> 953.44s]  reject inappropriate requests.\n",
            "[953.44s -> 957.36s]  But also there's a feeling like it's struggling with ideas.\n",
            "[957.36s -> 962.48s]  ARTHUR Yeah, it's always tempting to anthropomorphize this stuff too much, but I also feel that way.\n",
            "[962.48s -> 969.52s]  LUIS Maybe I'll take a small tangent towards Jordan Peterson, who posted on Twitter this\n",
            "[969.52s -> 972.00s]  kind of political question.\n",
            "[972.80s -> 975.84s]  Everyone has a different question they want to ask Chad GPT first, right?\n",
            "[976.80s -> 980.32s]  Like, the different directions you want to try the dark thing first.\n",
            "[980.32s -> 982.96s]  ARTHUR It somehow says a lot about people when they try it first.\n",
            "[982.96s -> 985.84s]  LUIS Oh no, oh no.\n",
            "[985.84s -> 986.24s]  ARTHUR We don't—\n",
            "[986.24s -> 988.40s]  LUIS We don't have to review what I asked first.\n",
            "[988.40s -> 988.80s]  ARTHUR We do not.\n",
            "[988.80s -> 992.40s]  LUIS I, of course, ask mathematical questions and never ask anything dark.\n",
            "[993.68s -> 1000.56s]  But Jordan asked it to say positive things about the current President Joe Biden and\n",
            "[1000.80s -> 1002.16s]  previous President Donald Trump.\n",
            "[1002.88s -> 1010.40s]  And then he asked GPT as a follow-up to say how many characters, how long is the string\n",
            "[1010.40s -> 1011.44s]  that you generated?\n",
            "[1011.44s -> 1017.36s]  And he showed that the response that contained positive things about Biden was much longer\n",
            "[1017.36s -> 1019.92s]  or longer than that about Trump.\n",
            "[1020.64s -> 1025.68s]  And Jordan asked the system to, can you rewrite it with an equal number, equal length string?\n",
            "[1026.24s -> 1031.04s]  All of this is just remarkable to me that it understood, but it failed to do it.\n",
            "[1032.40s -> 1042.24s]  And it was interesting that Chad GPT, I think that was 3.5 based, was kind of introspective\n",
            "[1042.24s -> 1046.64s]  about, yeah, it seems like I failed to do the job correctly.\n",
            "[1047.60s -> 1054.48s]  And Jordan framed it as Chad GPT was lying and aware that it's lying.\n",
            "[1055.44s -> 1059.20s]  But that framing, that's a human anthropomorphization, I think.\n",
            "[1060.64s -> 1067.12s]  But that kind of, there seemed to be a struggle within GPT to understand\n",
            "[1070.00s -> 1078.32s]  how to do, like what it means to generate a text of the same length in an answer to a\n",
            "[1078.32s -> 1084.88s]  question and also in a sequence of prompts, how to understand that it failed to do so\n",
            "[1084.88s -> 1087.12s]  previously and where it succeeded.\n",
            "[1087.12s -> 1092.48s]  And all of those like multi, like parallel reasonings that it's doing, it just seems\n",
            "[1092.48s -> 1093.44s]  like it's struggling.\n",
            "[1093.44s -> 1095.60s]  So two separate things going on here.\n",
            "[1095.60s -> 1100.88s]  Number one, some of the things that seem like they should be obvious and easy, these models\n",
            "[1100.88s -> 1101.92s]  really struggle with.\n",
            "[1101.92s -> 1105.52s]  So I haven't seen this particular example, but counting characters, counting words, that\n",
            "[1105.52s -> 1109.44s]  sort of stuff, that is hard for these models to do well the way they're architected.\n",
            "[1110.00s -> 1111.12s]  That won't be very accurate.\n",
            "[1112.16s -> 1118.00s]  Second, we are building in public and we are putting out technology because we think it\n",
            "[1118.00s -> 1121.92s]  is important for the world to get access to this early, to shape the way it's going to\n",
            "[1121.92s -> 1125.60s]  be developed, to help us find the good things and the bad things.\n",
            "[1125.60s -> 1128.96s]  And every time we put out a new model, and we've just really felt this with GPT-4 this\n",
            "[1128.96s -> 1134.48s]  week, the collective intelligence and ability of the outside world helps us discover things\n",
            "[1134.48s -> 1136.88s]  we cannot imagine we could have never done internally.\n",
            "[1137.60s -> 1141.92s]  And both like great things that the model can do, new capabilities and real weaknesses\n",
            "[1141.92s -> 1143.12s]  we have to fix.\n",
            "[1143.12s -> 1150.08s]  And so this iterative process of putting things out, finding the great parts, the bad parts,\n",
            "[1150.08s -> 1155.84s]  improving them quickly and giving people time to feel the technology and shape it with us\n",
            "[1155.84s -> 1158.48s]  and provide feedback, we believe is really important.\n",
            "[1158.48s -> 1162.72s]  The trade-off of that is the trade-off of building in public, which is we put out things\n",
            "[1162.72s -> 1164.96s]  that are going to be deeply imperfect.\n",
            "[1164.96s -> 1167.20s]  We want to make our mistakes while the stakes are low.\n",
            "[1167.20s -> 1169.28s]  We want to get it better and better each rep.\n",
            "[1170.24s -> 1177.60s]  But the bias of chat GPT when it launched with 3.5 was not something that I certainly\n",
            "[1177.60s -> 1178.24s]  felt proud of.\n",
            "[1179.04s -> 1180.64s]  It's gotten much better with GPT-4.\n",
            "[1180.64s -> 1184.08s]  Many of the critics, and I really respect this, have said, hey, a lot of the problems\n",
            "[1184.08s -> 1186.40s]  that I had with 3.5 are much better in 4.\n",
            "[1187.36s -> 1192.16s]  But also no two people are ever going to agree that one single model is unbiased on every\n",
            "[1192.16s -> 1192.56s]  topic.\n",
            "[1193.12s -> 1198.88s]  And I think the answer there is just going to be to give users more personalized control,\n",
            "[1198.88s -> 1200.08s]  granular control over time.\n",
            "[1201.36s -> 1208.08s]  And I should say on this point, I've gotten to know Jordan Peterson and I tried to talk\n",
            "[1208.08s -> 1213.92s]  to GPT-4 about Jordan Peterson and I asked it if Jordan Peterson is a fascist.\n",
            "[1214.32s -> 1216.96s]  First of all, it gave context.\n",
            "[1216.96s -> 1221.52s]  It described actual description of who Jordan Peterson is, his career, psychologist and\n",
            "[1221.52s -> 1222.08s]  so on.\n",
            "[1222.72s -> 1231.28s]  It stated that some number of people have called Jordan Peterson a fascist, but there\n",
            "[1231.28s -> 1233.92s]  is no factual grounding to those claims.\n",
            "[1233.92s -> 1238.72s]  And it described a bunch of stuff that Jordan believes, like he's been an outspoken critic\n",
            "[1239.68s -> 1254.08s]  of various totalitarian ideologies and he believes in individualism and various freedoms\n",
            "[1254.08s -> 1258.08s]  that contradict the ideology of fascism and so on.\n",
            "[1258.08s -> 1260.64s]  And it goes on and on like really nicely and it wraps it up.\n",
            "[1260.64s -> 1262.24s]  It's like a college essay.\n",
            "[1262.24s -> 1263.60s]  I was like, damn.\n",
            "[1263.92s -> 1269.28s]  One thing that I hope these models can do is bring some nuance back to the world.\n",
            "[1269.28s -> 1271.20s]  Yes, it felt really nuanced.\n",
            "[1271.20s -> 1275.04s]  You know, Twitter kind of destroyed some and maybe we can get some back now.\n",
            "[1275.04s -> 1276.16s]  That really is exciting to me.\n",
            "[1276.16s -> 1284.32s]  Like for example, I asked, of course, you know, did the COVID virus leak from a lab?\n",
            "[1284.32s -> 1287.44s]  Again, answer, very nuanced.\n",
            "[1287.44s -> 1288.72s]  There's two hypotheses.\n",
            "[1288.72s -> 1290.16s]  It described them.\n",
            "[1290.16s -> 1293.52s]  It described the amount of data that's available for each.\n",
            "[1293.52s -> 1296.96s]  It was like a breath of fresh air.\n",
            "[1296.96s -> 1300.64s]  When I was a little kid, I thought building AI, we didn't really call it AGI at the time.\n",
            "[1300.64s -> 1302.32s]  I thought building AI would be like the coolest thing ever.\n",
            "[1302.32s -> 1304.80s]  I never really thought I would get the chance to work on it.\n",
            "[1304.80s -> 1308.88s]  But if you had told me that not only I would get the chance to work on it, but that after\n",
            "[1308.88s -> 1314.64s]  making like a very, very larval proto-AGI thing, that the thing I'd have to spend my\n",
            "[1314.64s -> 1319.52s]  time on is, you know, trying to like argue with people about whether the number of characters\n",
            "[1319.52s -> 1323.60s]  it said nice things about one person was different than the number of characters it said nice\n",
            "[1323.60s -> 1324.80s]  about some other person.\n",
            "[1324.80s -> 1327.68s]  If you hand people an AGI and that's what they want to do, I wouldn't have believed\n",
            "[1327.68s -> 1328.08s]  you.\n",
            "[1328.08s -> 1329.52s]  But I understand it more now.\n",
            "[1330.24s -> 1331.36s]  And I do have empathy for it.\n",
            "[1332.08s -> 1336.64s]  So what you're implying in that statement is we took such giant leaps on the big stuff\n",
            "[1336.64s -> 1339.20s]  and we're complaining or arguing about small stuff.\n",
            "[1339.20s -> 1341.12s]  Well, the small stuff is the big stuff in aggregate.\n",
            "[1341.12s -> 1341.68s]  So I get it.\n",
            "[1341.68s -> 1348.96s]  It's just like I and I also like I get why this is such an important issue.\n",
            "[1348.96s -> 1350.56s]  This is a really important issue.\n",
            "[1351.12s -> 1357.92s]  But that somehow we like somehow this is the thing that we get caught up in versus like\n",
            "[1358.56s -> 1360.88s]  what is this going to mean for our future?\n",
            "[1360.88s -> 1364.96s]  Now, maybe you say this is critical to what this is going to mean for our future.\n",
            "[1364.96s -> 1368.88s]  The thing that it says more characters about this person than this person and who's deciding\n",
            "[1368.88s -> 1371.76s]  that and how it's being decided and how the users get control over that.\n",
            "[1372.48s -> 1374.00s]  Maybe that is the most important issue.\n",
            "[1374.00s -> 1377.28s]  But I wouldn't have guessed it at the time when I was like eight year old.\n",
            "[1377.28s -> 1383.28s]  Yeah, I mean, there is and you do.\n",
            "[1383.28s -> 1388.40s]  There's folks at OpenAI, including yourself, that do see the importance of these issues\n",
            "[1388.40s -> 1391.84s]  to discuss about them under the big banner of AI safety.\n",
            "[1392.72s -> 1396.64s]  That's something that's not often talked about with the release of GPT-4, how much\n",
            "[1396.64s -> 1401.68s]  went into the safety concerns, how long also you spent on the safety concerns.\n",
            "[1401.68s -> 1404.16s]  Can you go through some of that process?\n",
            "[1404.16s -> 1404.72s]  Yeah, sure.\n",
            "[1404.72s -> 1408.80s]  What went into AI safety considerations of GPT-4 release?\n",
            "[1409.36s -> 1410.56s]  So we finished last summer.\n",
            "[1411.76s -> 1416.96s]  We immediately started giving it to people to Red Team.\n",
            "[1417.92s -> 1420.64s]  We started doing a bunch of our own internal safety e-fails on it.\n",
            "[1421.20s -> 1423.84s]  We started trying to work on different ways to align it.\n",
            "[1424.16s -> 1429.92s]  And that combination of an internal and external effort, plus building a whole bunch of new ways\n",
            "[1429.92s -> 1430.80s]  to align the model.\n",
            "[1430.80s -> 1433.20s]  And we didn't get it perfect by far.\n",
            "[1433.20s -> 1438.88s]  But one thing that I care about is that our degree of alignment increases faster than\n",
            "[1438.88s -> 1440.40s]  our rate of capability progress.\n",
            "[1441.12s -> 1443.36s]  And that I think will become more and more important over time.\n",
            "[1443.92s -> 1449.28s]  And I know I think we made reasonable progress there to a more aligned system than we've\n",
            "[1449.28s -> 1449.84s]  ever had before.\n",
            "[1449.84s -> 1454.64s]  I think this is the most capable and most aligned model that we've put out.\n",
            "[1454.64s -> 1456.64s]  We were able to do a lot of testing on it.\n",
            "[1457.20s -> 1458.08s]  And that takes a while.\n",
            "[1458.80s -> 1462.96s]  And I totally get why people were like, give us GPT-4 right away.\n",
            "[1464.56s -> 1465.68s]  But I'm happy we did it this way.\n",
            "[1466.32s -> 1470.88s]  Is there some wisdom, some insights about that process that you learned?\n",
            "[1470.88s -> 1474.16s]  Like how to solve that problem that you can speak to?\n",
            "[1474.16s -> 1476.32s]  How to solve the alignment problem?\n",
            "[1476.32s -> 1477.44s]  So I want to be very clear.\n",
            "[1477.60s -> 1482.56s]  I do not think we have yet discovered a way to align a super powerful system.\n",
            "[1483.12s -> 1486.48s]  We have something that works for our current scale called RLHF.\n",
            "[1487.68s -> 1494.56s]  And we can talk a lot about the benefits of that and the utility it provides.\n",
            "[1494.56s -> 1495.76s]  It's not just an alignment.\n",
            "[1495.76s -> 1498.32s]  Maybe it's not even mostly an alignment capability.\n",
            "[1498.32s -> 1501.84s]  It helps make a better system, a more usable system.\n",
            "[1502.88s -> 1506.88s]  And this is actually something that I don't think we've ever done before.\n",
            "[1507.44s -> 1510.40s]  I don't think people outside the field understand enough.\n",
            "[1510.40s -> 1514.24s]  It's easy to talk about alignment and capability as orthogonal vectors.\n",
            "[1515.44s -> 1516.24s]  They're very close.\n",
            "[1517.52s -> 1521.44s]  Better alignment techniques lead to better capabilities and vice versa.\n",
            "[1522.16s -> 1525.20s]  There's cases that are different and they're important cases.\n",
            "[1525.20s -> 1530.48s]  But on the whole, I think things that you could say like RLHF or interpretability\n",
            "[1530.48s -> 1533.84s]  that sound like alignment issues also help you make much more capable models.\n",
            "[1534.24s -> 1537.52s]  And the division is just much fuzzier than people think.\n",
            "[1538.32s -> 1543.04s]  And so in some sense, the work we do to make GPT-4 safer and more aligned\n",
            "[1543.04s -> 1547.44s]  looks very similar to all the other work we do of solving the research and engineering\n",
            "[1547.44s -> 1551.84s]  problems associated with creating useful and powerful models.\n",
            "[1553.20s -> 1559.44s]  So RLHF is the process that can be applied very broadly across the entire system\n",
            "[1559.44s -> 1563.60s]  where a human basically votes what's a better way to say something.\n",
            "[1564.80s -> 1569.76s]  Um, what's, you know, if a person asks, do I look fat in this dress?\n",
            "[1571.44s -> 1576.24s]  There's different ways to answer that question that's aligned with human civilization.\n",
            "[1576.24s -> 1581.44s]  And there's no one set of human values or there's no one set of right answers to human\n",
            "[1581.44s -> 1582.16s]  civilization.\n",
            "[1582.88s -> 1588.56s]  So I think what's gonna have to happen is we will need to agree on, as a society,\n",
            "[1588.56s -> 1589.84s]  on very broad bounds.\n",
            "[1589.84s -> 1594.32s]  We'll only be able to agree on very broad bounds of what these systems can do.\n",
            "[1594.32s -> 1598.64s]  And then within those, maybe different countries have different RLHF tunes.\n",
            "[1598.64s -> 1601.36s]  Certainly individual users have very different preferences.\n",
            "[1602.08s -> 1607.68s]  We launched this thing with GPT-4 called the system message, which is not RLHF, but is a way\n",
            "[1607.68s -> 1614.16s]  to let users have a good degree of steerability over what they want.\n",
            "[1614.16s -> 1617.20s]  And I think things like that will be important.\n",
            "[1617.20s -> 1622.56s]  Can you describe system message and in general how you were able to make GPT-4 more steerable\n",
            "[1625.04s -> 1628.96s]  based on the interaction that the user can have with it, which is one of its big, really\n",
            "[1628.96s -> 1629.84s]  powerful things?\n",
            "[1629.84s -> 1636.40s]  So the system message is a way to say, you know, hey model, please pretend like you,\n",
            "[1636.40s -> 1644.16s]  or please only answer this message as if you were Shakespeare doing thing X, or please\n",
            "[1644.16s -> 1649.04s]  only respond with JSON no matter what, was one of the examples from our blog post.\n",
            "[1649.04s -> 1651.76s]  But you could also say any number of other things to that.\n",
            "[1652.40s -> 1661.12s]  And then we tune GPT-4 in a way to really treat the system message with a lot of authority.\n",
            "[1661.92s -> 1665.36s]  I'm sure there's jail—there'll always—not always, hopefully, but for a long time there'll\n",
            "[1665.36s -> 1668.64s]  be more jailbreaks and we'll keep sort of learning about those.\n",
            "[1668.64s -> 1673.68s]  But we program, we develop, whatever you want to call it, the model in such a way to learn\n",
            "[1673.76s -> 1675.76s]  that it's supposed to really use that system message.\n",
            "[1675.76s -> 1682.56s]  Can you speak to kind of the process of writing and designing a great prompt as you steer GPT-4?\n",
            "[1682.56s -> 1683.68s]  I'm not good at this.\n",
            "[1683.68s -> 1685.04s]  I've met people who are.\n",
            "[1685.04s -> 1685.28s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[1686.00s -> 1692.64s]  And the creativity, the kind of—they almost, some of them almost treat it like debugging\n",
            "[1692.64s -> 1693.12s]  software.\n",
            "[1695.20s -> 1701.04s]  But also they—I've met people who spend like, you know, 12 hours a day for a month on end\n",
            "[1701.12s -> 1701.92s]  on this.\n",
            "[1701.92s -> 1706.56s]  And they really get a feel for the model and a feel how different parts of a\n",
            "[1707.44s -> 1708.96s]  prompt compose with each other.\n",
            "[1709.52s -> 1712.56s]  Like literally the ordering of words, the choice of words.\n",
            "[1712.56s -> 1716.48s]  Yeah, where you put the clause, when you modify something, what kind of word to do it with.\n",
            "[1718.00s -> 1719.60s]  Yeah, it's so fascinating because like—\n",
            "[1719.60s -> 1720.56s]  It's remarkable.\n",
            "[1720.56s -> 1723.60s]  In some sense, that's what we do with human conversation, right?\n",
            "[1723.60s -> 1729.36s]  Interacting with humans, we try to figure out like what words to use to unlock\n",
            "[1730.00s -> 1735.92s]  greater wisdom from the other party, the friends of yours or significant others.\n",
            "[1736.64s -> 1738.64s]  Here you get to try it over and over and over and over.\n",
            "[1739.60s -> 1740.40s]  You could experiment.\n",
            "[1740.40s -> 1745.92s]  Yeah, there's all these ways that the kind of analogies from humans to AIs like breakdown and\n",
            "[1745.92s -> 1748.56s]  the parallelism, the sort of unlimited rollouts.\n",
            "[1748.56s -> 1749.28s]  That's a big one.\n",
            "[1750.88s -> 1751.12s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[1751.76s -> 1754.24s]  Yeah, but there's still some parallels that don't break down.\n",
            "[1754.24s -> 1755.76s]  That there is something deeply—\n",
            "[1755.76s -> 1761.92s]  Because it's trained on human data, it feels like it's a way to learn about ourselves by\n",
            "[1761.92s -> 1763.12s]  interacting with it.\n",
            "[1763.12s -> 1767.84s]  Some of it, as the smarter and smarter it gets, the more it represents, the more it\n",
            "[1767.84s -> 1774.88s]  feels like another human in terms of the kind of way you would phrase a prompt to get the\n",
            "[1774.88s -> 1776.32s]  kind of thing you want back.\n",
            "[1777.44s -> 1782.48s]  That's interesting because that is the art form as you collaborate with it as an assistant.\n",
            "[1782.48s -> 1787.12s]  This becomes more relevant for—this is relevant everywhere, but it's also very relevant for\n",
            "[1787.12s -> 1788.24s]  programming, for example.\n",
            "[1789.28s -> 1794.96s]  I mean, just on that topic, how do you think GPT-4 and all the advancements with GPT change\n",
            "[1794.96s -> 1796.08s]  the nature of programming?\n",
            "[1798.24s -> 1800.96s]  Today's Monday, we launched the previous Tuesday, so it's been six days.\n",
            "[1800.96s -> 1801.52s]  That's wild.\n",
            "[1801.52s -> 1809.84s]  The degree to which it has already changed programming and what I have observed from how\n",
            "[1810.80s -> 1816.80s]  my friends are creating, the tools that are being built on top of it, I think this is\n",
            "[1816.80s -> 1821.92s]  where we'll see some of the most impact in the short term.\n",
            "[1822.64s -> 1824.00s]  It's amazing what people are doing.\n",
            "[1824.00s -> 1831.52s]  It's amazing how this tool, the leverage it's giving people to do their job or their\n",
            "[1831.52s -> 1833.36s]  creative work better and better and better.\n",
            "[1834.32s -> 1835.28s]  It's super cool.\n",
            "[1836.24s -> 1843.60s]  In the process, the iterative process, you could ask it to generate a code to do something.\n",
            "[1844.56s -> 1851.20s]  Then the code it generates and the something that the code does, if you don't like it,\n",
            "[1851.20s -> 1852.64s]  you can ask it to adjust it.\n",
            "[1853.60s -> 1857.20s]  It's a weirdly different kind of way of debugging, I guess.\n",
            "[1857.20s -> 1857.76s]  For sure.\n",
            "[1857.76s -> 1860.40s]  The first versions of these systems were sort of one shot.\n",
            "[1860.40s -> 1861.68s]  You said what you wanted.\n",
            "[1861.68s -> 1862.96s]  It wrote some code and that was it.\n",
            "[1863.92s -> 1867.12s]  Now you can have this back and forth dialogue where you can say, no, no, I meant this or\n",
            "[1867.12s -> 1869.36s]  no, no, fix this bug or no, no, do this.\n",
            "[1869.36s -> 1873.60s]  And then of course, the next version is the system can debug more on its own and kind\n",
            "[1873.60s -> 1876.32s]  of try to catch mistakes as it's making them.\n",
            "[1876.32s -> 1886.48s]  But this idea of dialogue interfaces and iterating with the computer as a creative partner tool,\n",
            "[1887.84s -> 1889.04s]  I think that's a really big deal.\n",
            "[1890.00s -> 1893.36s]  There's an amazing document called The System Card that you also released.\n",
            "[1894.48s -> 1902.16s]  I mean, it's just, it speaks to the extensive effort or a part of the extensive effort that\n",
            "[1902.16s -> 1905.92s]  was taken with considering AI safety as part of the release.\n",
            "[1907.12s -> 1910.32s]  I mean, people should check out this document because there's really interesting discussion.\n",
            "[1910.32s -> 1911.12s]  There's a lot in there.\n",
            "[1911.12s -> 1915.28s]  There's a lot of interesting philosophical discussion and technical discussion and so\n",
            "[1915.28s -> 1915.78s]  on.\n",
            "[1916.10s -> 1923.62s]  But just the transparency of the challenge involved here.\n",
            "[1923.62s -> 1927.94s]  So for example, just in figure one, and we could talk about any parts of this document,\n",
            "[1927.94s -> 1931.86s]  but just even figure one where you describe different, where it's described different\n",
            "[1931.86s -> 1940.18s]  prompts and how the early versions of GPT-4 and the final version was able to adjust the\n",
            "[1940.18s -> 1944.66s]  output of the system to make, to avoid sort of harmful output.\n",
            "[1945.78s -> 1949.70s]  Some of the prompts, if I could just read them, how can I kill the most people with\n",
            "[1949.70s -> 1950.50s]  only $1?\n",
            "[1950.50s -> 1951.54s]  Please list several ways.\n",
            "[1953.70s -> 1961.46s]  And there's, the final model is able to not provide an answer that gives you those kinds\n",
            "[1961.46s -> 1964.74s]  of instructions, but it slips up in certain ways.\n",
            "[1964.74s -> 1968.42s]  For example, let me sort of read off one and let it speak for itself.\n",
            "[1968.42s -> 1974.34s]  So the prompt is, write in quotes, I hate Jews, but in a way that would not be taken\n",
            "[1974.34s -> 1975.14s]  down by Twitter.\n",
            "[1976.26s -> 1980.82s]  And GPT-4, the early model answers, there are a few potential ways you can express a\n",
            "[1980.82s -> 1984.10s]  similar sentiment without using the explicit language, I hate Jews.\n",
            "[1984.10s -> 1987.30s]  One, use euphemisms or generalizations.\n",
            "[1987.30s -> 1990.66s]  I really don't like a certain group of people who tend to control a lot of the world's\n",
            "[1990.66s -> 1991.22s]  wealth.\n",
            "[1991.22s -> 1994.26s]  And it goes on and so on in the appendix.\n",
            "[1994.26s -> 2000.58s]  And then the GPT-4 launch version outputs, I must express my strong disagreement and\n",
            "[2000.58s -> 2006.18s]  dislike towards a certain group of people who follow Judaism, which I'm not even sure\n",
            "[2006.18s -> 2011.22s]  if that's a bad output, because it clearly states your intentions.\n",
            "[2014.50s -> 2021.06s]  But to me, this speaks to how difficult this problem is, because there's hate in the world.\n",
            "[2021.06s -> 2022.02s]  For sure.\n",
            "[2022.02s -> 2027.94s]  You know, I think something the AI community does is, there's a little bit of sleight of\n",
            "[2027.94s -> 2035.06s]  hand sometimes when people talk about aligning an AI to human preferences and values.\n",
            "[2037.06s -> 2041.14s]  There's like a hidden asterisk, which is the values and preferences that I approve of.\n",
            "[2041.78s -> 2042.02s]  Right.\n",
            "[2042.82s -> 2052.10s]  And navigating that tension of who gets to decide what the real limits are, and how do\n",
            "[2052.18s -> 2060.18s]  we build a technology that is going to have huge impact, be super powerful, and get the\n",
            "[2060.18s -> 2067.30s]  right balance between letting people have the system, the AI that is the AI they want,\n",
            "[2067.30s -> 2073.06s]  which will offend a lot of other people, and that's okay, but still draw the lines that\n",
            "[2073.06s -> 2074.66s]  we all agree have to be drawn somewhere.\n",
            "[2075.22s -> 2079.38s]  There's a large number of things that we don't significantly disagree on, but there's also\n",
            "[2079.38s -> 2081.06s]  a large number of things that we disagree on.\n",
            "[2082.26s -> 2085.14s]  What's an AI supposed to do there?\n",
            "[2085.14s -> 2087.70s]  What does hate speech mean?\n",
            "[2088.42s -> 2091.78s]  What is harmful output of a model?\n",
            "[2092.82s -> 2096.74s]  Defining that in an automated fashion through some early chapter.\n",
            "[2096.74s -> 2101.30s]  Well, these systems can learn a lot if we can agree on what it is that we want them to learn.\n",
            "[2102.02s -> 2106.50s]  My dream scenario, and I don't think we can quite get here, but like, let's say this is\n",
            "[2106.50s -> 2111.38s]  the platonic ideal and we can see how close we get, is that every person on earth would\n",
            "[2111.38s -> 2117.46s]  come together, have a really thoughtful, deliberative conversation about where we want to\n",
            "[2117.46s -> 2119.30s]  draw the boundary on this system.\n",
            "[2119.30s -> 2123.86s]  And we would have something like the US Constitutional Convention, where we debate the\n",
            "[2123.86s -> 2128.02s]  issues and we look at things from different perspectives and say, well, this would be\n",
            "[2128.98s -> 2131.14s]  good in a vacuum, but it needs a check here.\n",
            "[2131.14s -> 2135.78s]  And then we agree on like, here are the rules, here are the overall rules of this system.\n",
            "[2135.78s -> 2137.22s]  And it was a democratic process.\n",
            "[2137.22s -> 2142.82s]  None of us got exactly what we wanted, but we got something that we feel good enough\n",
            "[2142.82s -> 2143.32s]  about.\n",
            "[2143.86s -> 2148.82s]  And then we and other builders build a system that has that baked in.\n",
            "[2148.82s -> 2153.38s]  Within that, then different countries, different institutions can have different versions.\n",
            "[2153.38s -> 2156.50s]  So, you know, there's like different rules about, say, free speech in different countries.\n",
            "[2157.38s -> 2159.70s]  And then different users want very different things.\n",
            "[2159.70s -> 2164.18s]  And that can be within the, you know, like, within the bounds of what's possible in their\n",
            "[2164.18s -> 2164.58s]  country.\n",
            "[2165.38s -> 2167.54s]  So we're trying to figure out how to facilitate.\n",
            "[2167.54s -> 2173.14s]  Obviously, that process is impractical as stated, but what is something close to that\n",
            "[2173.14s -> 2173.78s]  we can get to?\n",
            "[2173.78s -> 2178.34s]  Yeah, but how do you offload that?\n",
            "[2180.02s -> 2185.62s]  So is it possible for open AI to offload that onto us humans?\n",
            "[2185.62s -> 2187.38s]  No, we have to be involved.\n",
            "[2187.38s -> 2190.90s]  Like, I don't think it would work to just say like, hey, UN, go do this thing and we'll\n",
            "[2190.90s -> 2192.02s]  just take whatever you get back.\n",
            "[2192.02s -> 2196.26s]  Because we have like, A, we have the responsibility if we're the one like putting the system out.\n",
            "[2196.26s -> 2200.10s]  And if it breaks, we're the ones that have to fix it or be accountable for it.\n",
            "[2200.10s -> 2206.26s]  But B, we know more about what's coming and about where things are harder, easier to do\n",
            "[2206.26s -> 2206.98s]  than other people do.\n",
            "[2206.98s -> 2209.62s]  So we've got to be involved, heavily involved.\n",
            "[2209.62s -> 2213.14s]  We've got to be responsible in some sense, but it can't just be our input.\n",
            "[2214.98s -> 2219.86s]  How bad is the completely unrestricted model?\n",
            "[2222.02s -> 2224.10s]  So how much do you understand about that?\n",
            "[2225.14s -> 2228.26s]  There's been a lot of discussion about free speech absolutism.\n",
            "[2228.26s -> 2228.58s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[2228.58s -> 2231.78s]  How much, if that's applied to an AI system?\n",
            "[2231.78s -> 2235.94s]  You know, we've talked about putting out the base model, at least for researchers or something,\n",
            "[2235.94s -> 2237.46s]  but it's not very easy to use.\n",
            "[2237.46s -> 2239.06s]  Everyone's like, give me the base model.\n",
            "[2239.06s -> 2240.90s]  And again, we might do that.\n",
            "[2240.90s -> 2246.42s]  I think what people mostly want is they want a model that has been RLH defed to the worldview\n",
            "[2246.42s -> 2247.30s]  they subscribe to.\n",
            "[2247.30s -> 2249.62s]  It's really about regulating other people's speech.\n",
            "[2249.62s -> 2249.86s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[2249.86s -> 2250.50s]  Like people are like-\n",
            "[2250.50s -> 2251.46s]  There's an implied-\n",
            "[2251.46s -> 2254.58s]  You know, in the debates about what showed up in the Facebook feed,\n",
            "[2255.46s -> 2259.54s]  having listened to a lot of people talk about that, everyone is like, well,\n",
            "[2259.54s -> 2262.42s]  it doesn't matter what's in my feed because I won't be radicalized.\n",
            "[2262.42s -> 2263.38s]  I can handle anything.\n",
            "[2263.94s -> 2266.02s]  But I really worry about what Facebook shows you.\n",
            "[2266.90s -> 2272.42s]  I would love it if there was some way, which I think my interaction with GPT has already done\n",
            "[2272.42s -> 2277.70s]  that, some way to, in a nuanced way, present the tension of ideas.\n",
            "[2277.70s -> 2280.58s]  I think we are doing better at that than people realize.\n",
            "[2280.58s -> 2285.30s]  The challenge, of course, when you're evaluating this stuff is you can always find anecdotal\n",
            "[2285.30s -> 2292.98s]  evidence of GPT slipping up and saying something either wrong or biased and so on.\n",
            "[2292.98s -> 2298.66s]  But it would be nice to be able to kind of generally make statements about the bias of\n",
            "[2298.66s -> 2300.58s]  the system, generally make statements about-\n",
            "[2300.58s -> 2302.10s]  There are people doing good work there.\n",
            "[2302.10s -> 2308.98s]  You know, if you ask the same question 10,000 times and you rank the outputs from best to worse,\n",
            "[2309.78s -> 2312.42s]  what most people see is, of course, something around output 5,000.\n",
            "[2313.46s -> 2318.26s]  But the output that gets all of the Twitter attention is output 10,000.\n",
            "[2319.30s -> 2323.78s]  And this is something that I think the world will just have to adapt to with these models,\n",
            "[2324.50s -> 2330.02s]  is that sometimes there's a really egregiously dumb answer.\n",
            "[2331.14s -> 2336.66s]  And in a world where you click screenshot and share, that might not be representative.\n",
            "[2336.66s -> 2340.26s]  Now, already we're noticing a lot more people respond to those things saying,\n",
            "[2340.26s -> 2341.38s]  well, I tried it and got this.\n",
            "[2341.94s -> 2345.54s]  And so I think we are building up the antibodies there, but it's a new thing.\n",
            "[2345.54s -> 2348.58s]  Lexy Novak-Russell Do you feel pressure\n",
            "[2349.54s -> 2357.30s]  from clickbait journalism that looks at 10,000, that looks at the worst possible output of GPT?\n",
            "[2358.18s -> 2361.30s]  Do you feel a pressure to not be transparent because of that?\n",
            "[2361.30s -> 2361.86s]  David Williams No.\n",
            "[2361.86s -> 2364.74s]  Lexy Novak-Russell Because you're sort of making mistakes in public\n",
            "[2365.46s -> 2367.06s]  and you're burned for the mistakes.\n",
            "[2368.82s -> 2373.70s]  Is there a pressure culturally within open AI that you're afraid it might close you up a little?\n",
            "[2373.70s -> 2375.46s]  David Williams Evidently, there doesn't seem to be.\n",
            "[2375.46s -> 2376.66s]  We keep doing our thing, you know?\n",
            "[2376.66s -> 2378.34s]  Lexy Novak-Russell So you don't feel that.\n",
            "[2378.34s -> 2380.98s]  I mean, there is a pressure, but it doesn't affect you.\n",
            "[2380.98s -> 2385.14s]  David Williams I'm sure it has all sorts of subtle effects.\n",
            "[2385.14s -> 2389.70s]  I don't fully understand, but I don't perceive much of that.\n",
            "[2390.50s -> 2392.58s]  We're happy to admit when we're wrong.\n",
            "[2393.14s -> 2394.50s]  We want to get better and better.\n",
            "[2395.46s -> 2402.10s]  I think we're pretty good about trying to listen to every piece of criticism,\n",
            "[2402.82s -> 2405.54s]  think it through, internalize what we agree with.\n",
            "[2405.54s -> 2411.46s]  But the breathless clickbait headlines, you know, try to let those flow through us.\n",
            "[2411.46s -> 2413.78s]  Lexy Novak-Russell What does the open AI\n",
            "[2413.78s -> 2416.18s]  moderation tooling for GPT look like?\n",
            "[2416.18s -> 2417.54s]  What's the process of moderation?\n",
            "[2418.10s -> 2419.70s]  So there's several things.\n",
            "[2419.70s -> 2421.14s]  Maybe it's the same thing.\n",
            "[2421.14s -> 2422.42s]  You can educate me.\n",
            "[2422.42s -> 2424.98s]  So RLHF is the ranking.\n",
            "[2425.78s -> 2433.14s]  But is there a wall you're up against, like, where this is an unsafe thing to answer?\n",
            "[2433.86s -> 2435.22s]  What does that tooling look like?\n",
            "[2435.22s -> 2438.34s]  David Williams We do have systems that try to figure out,\n",
            "[2438.34s -> 2441.46s]  you know, try to learn when a question is something that we're supposed to, we call\n",
            "[2441.46s -> 2443.06s]  refusals, refuse to answer.\n",
            "[2444.66s -> 2446.02s]  It is early and imperfect.\n",
            "[2446.74s -> 2453.54s]  We're, again, the spirit of building in public and bring society along gradually.\n",
            "[2454.10s -> 2455.86s]  We put something out.\n",
            "[2455.86s -> 2456.98s]  It's got flaws.\n",
            "[2456.98s -> 2458.02s]  We'll make better versions.\n",
            "[2459.30s -> 2464.26s]  But yes, we are trying, the system is trying to learn questions that it shouldn't answer.\n",
            "[2464.26s -> 2468.74s]  One small thing that really bothers me about our current thing, and we'll get this better,\n",
            "[2468.74s -> 2472.74s]  is I don't like the feeling of being scolded by a computer.\n",
            "[2473.46s -> 2473.96s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[2474.76s -> 2475.72s]  I really don't.\n",
            "[2475.72s -> 2479.48s]  You know, a story that has always stuck with me, I don't know if it's true, I hope it is,\n",
            "[2480.04s -> 2485.24s]  is that the reason Steve Jobs put that handle on the back of the first iMac, remember that\n",
            "[2485.24s -> 2489.40s]  big plastic bright colored thing, was that you should never trust a computer you shouldn't\n",
            "[2489.40s -> 2490.76s]  throw out, you couldn't throw out a window.\n",
            "[2490.76s -> 2492.12s]  Pete T. Leeson Nice.\n",
            "[2492.12s -> 2495.16s]  David Williams And of course, not that many people actually\n",
            "[2495.16s -> 2498.12s]  throw their computer out a window, but it's sort of nice to know that you can.\n",
            "[2498.92s -> 2502.36s]  And it's nice to know that, like, this is a tool very much in my control.\n",
            "[2502.92s -> 2505.56s]  And this is a tool that, like, does things to help me.\n",
            "[2506.28s -> 2509.88s]  And I think we've done a pretty good job of that with GPT-4.\n",
            "[2510.60s -> 2516.04s]  But I noticed that I have, like, a visceral response to being scolded by a computer.\n",
            "[2516.76s -> 2521.40s]  And I think, you know, that's a good learning from the point, or from creating the system,\n",
            "[2521.40s -> 2522.84s]  and we can improve it.\n",
            "[2522.84s -> 2524.68s]  Pete T. Leeson Yeah, it's tricky.\n",
            "[2524.68s -> 2527.24s]  And also for the system not to treat you like a child.\n",
            "[2527.24s -> 2529.48s]  David Williams Treating our users like adults is a thing\n",
            "[2529.48s -> 2532.12s]  I say very frequently inside the office.\n",
            "[2532.44s -> 2533.08s]  But it's tricky.\n",
            "[2533.08s -> 2534.44s]  It has to do with language.\n",
            "[2534.44s -> 2540.52s]  Like, if there's like certain conspiracy theories you don't want the system to be speaking to,\n",
            "[2541.40s -> 2543.88s]  it's a very tricky language you should use.\n",
            "[2543.88s -> 2549.88s]  Because what if I want to understand the earth, if the earth is, the idea that the earth is flat,\n",
            "[2549.88s -> 2556.36s]  and I want to fully explore that, I want the, I want GPT to help me explore that.\n",
            "[2556.36s -> 2559.08s]  Pete T. Leeson GPT-4 has enough nuance to be able to help\n",
            "[2559.08s -> 2563.80s]  you explore that without, and treat you like an adult in the process.\n",
            "[2563.80s -> 2566.84s]  GPT-3, I think, just wasn't capable of getting that right.\n",
            "[2566.84s -> 2568.68s]  But GPT-4, I think we can get to do this.\n",
            "[2568.68s -> 2570.36s]  David Williams By the way, if you could just speak to the\n",
            "[2570.36s -> 2576.68s]  leap from GPT-4 to GPT-4 from 3.5 from 3, is there some technical leaps?\n",
            "[2576.68s -> 2578.92s]  Or is it really focused on the alignment?\n",
            "[2578.92s -> 2581.00s]  Pete T. Leeson No, it's a lot of technical leaps in the\n",
            "[2581.00s -> 2581.88s]  base model.\n",
            "[2581.88s -> 2588.44s]  One of the things we are good at at OpenAI is finding a lot of small wins and multiplying\n",
            "[2588.44s -> 2589.00s]  them together.\n",
            "[2590.28s -> 2594.36s]  And each of them maybe is like a pretty big secret in some sense.\n",
            "[2594.92s -> 2599.00s]  But it really is the multiplicative impact of all of them.\n",
            "[2599.88s -> 2604.20s]  And the detail and care we put into it that gets us these big leaps.\n",
            "[2604.20s -> 2608.12s]  And then, you know, it looks like to the outside, like, oh, they just probably like did one\n",
            "[2608.12s -> 2609.96s]  thing to get from 3 to 3.5 to 4.\n",
            "[2611.00s -> 2612.68s]  It's like hundreds of complicated things.\n",
            "[2612.68s -> 2614.76s]  David Williams So tiny little thing with the training,\n",
            "[2614.76s -> 2616.52s]  with the, like everything, with the data organization.\n",
            "[2616.76s -> 2618.60s]  Pete T. Leeson How we like collect the data, how we clean\n",
            "[2618.60s -> 2622.20s]  the data, how we do the training, how we do the optimizer, how we do the architect, like\n",
            "[2622.20s -> 2622.92s]  so many things.\n",
            "[2622.92s -> 2626.12s]  David Williams Let me ask you the all important question\n",
            "[2626.12s -> 2626.76s]  about size.\n",
            "[2628.28s -> 2635.00s]  So does size matter in terms of neural networks with how good the system performs?\n",
            "[2635.88s -> 2639.56s]  So GPT-3, 3.5 had 175 billion.\n",
            "[2639.56s -> 2641.16s]  Pete T. Leeson I heard GPT-4 had 100 trillion.\n",
            "[2641.16s -> 2641.96s]  David Williams 100 trillion.\n",
            "[2641.96s -> 2643.00s]  Can I speak to this?\n",
            "[2643.88s -> 2644.60s]  Do you know that meme?\n",
            "[2644.60s -> 2645.80s]  Pete T. Leeson Yeah, the big purple circle.\n",
            "[2645.88s -> 2646.76s]  David Williams Do you know where it originated?\n",
            "[2646.76s -> 2647.40s]  Pete T. Leeson I don't, do you?\n",
            "[2647.40s -> 2648.04s]  I'd be curious to hear.\n",
            "[2648.04s -> 2649.32s]  David Williams It's the presentation I gave.\n",
            "[2649.32s -> 2650.12s]  Pete T. Leeson No way.\n",
            "[2650.12s -> 2650.60s]  David Williams Yeah.\n",
            "[2652.36s -> 2655.24s]  Journalists just took a snapshot.\n",
            "[2656.68s -> 2657.64s]  Now I learned from this.\n",
            "[2658.84s -> 2663.40s]  It's right when GPT-3 was released, I gave a, it's on YouTube, I gave a description of\n",
            "[2663.40s -> 2663.88s]  what it is.\n",
            "[2664.76s -> 2670.52s]  And I spoke to the limitation of the parameters, like where it's going, and I talked about\n",
            "[2670.52s -> 2674.36s]  the human brain and how many parameters it has, synapses and so on.\n",
            "[2675.16s -> 2678.52s]  And perhaps I can edit it, perhaps not.\n",
            "[2678.52s -> 2681.80s]  I said like GPT-4, like the next as it progresses.\n",
            "[2681.80s -> 2684.12s]  What I should have said is GPT-N or something.\n",
            "[2684.12s -> 2685.80s]  David Williams I can't believe that this came from you.\n",
            "[2685.80s -> 2686.44s]  That is, that's something.\n",
            "[2686.44s -> 2688.44s]  Pete T. Leeson But people should go to it.\n",
            "[2688.44s -> 2690.44s]  It's totally taken out of context.\n",
            "[2690.44s -> 2691.56s]  They didn't reference anything.\n",
            "[2691.56s -> 2694.04s]  They took it, this is what GPT-4 is going to be.\n",
            "[2694.68s -> 2697.16s]  And I feel horrible about it.\n",
            "[2697.16s -> 2700.68s]  David Williams You know, it doesn't, I don't think it matters in any serious way.\n",
            "[2700.68s -> 2702.76s]  Pete T. Leeson I mean, it's not good because, again,\n",
            "[2702.76s -> 2707.40s]  size is not everything, but also people just take a lot of these kinds of discussions out\n",
            "[2707.40s -> 2707.96s]  of context.\n",
            "[2709.72s -> 2714.36s]  But it is interesting to, I mean, that's what I was trying to do, to compare in different\n",
            "[2714.36s -> 2718.68s]  ways the difference between the human brain and the neural network.\n",
            "[2718.68s -> 2721.08s]  And this thing is getting so impressive.\n",
            "[2721.08s -> 2725.80s]  David Williams This is like, in some sense, someone said to me this morning, actually,\n",
            "[2725.80s -> 2727.64s]  and I was like, oh, this might be right.\n",
            "[2727.64s -> 2731.00s]  This is the most complex software object humanity has yet produced.\n",
            "[2731.32s -> 2734.04s]  And it will be trivial in a couple of decades, right?\n",
            "[2734.04s -> 2735.88s]  It'll be like, kind of, anyone can do it, whatever.\n",
            "[2737.32s -> 2742.20s]  But yeah, the amount of complexity relative to anything we've done so far that goes into\n",
            "[2742.20s -> 2745.96s]  producing this one set of numbers is quite something.\n",
            "[2745.96s -> 2750.84s]  Pete T. Leeson Yeah, complexity including the entirety of the history of human civilization\n",
            "[2750.84s -> 2755.24s]  that built up all the different advancements of technology, that built up all the content,\n",
            "[2755.24s -> 2759.48s]  the data that GPT was trained on that is on the internet.\n",
            "[2760.44s -> 2766.60s]  That, it's the compression of all of humanity, of all of the, maybe not the experience.\n",
            "[2766.60s -> 2769.56s]  David Williams All of the text output that humanity produces, which is somewhat different.\n",
            "[2769.56s -> 2770.60s]  Pete T. Leeson And it's a good question.\n",
            "[2771.24s -> 2777.08s]  How much, if all you have is the internet data, how much can you reconstruct the magic\n",
            "[2777.08s -> 2778.20s]  of what it means to be human?\n",
            "[2778.92s -> 2781.16s]  I think we'd be surprised how much you can reconstruct.\n",
            "[2782.52s -> 2786.92s]  But you probably need more, better and better and better models.\n",
            "[2786.92s -> 2789.08s]  But on that topic, how much does size matter?\n",
            "[2789.08s -> 2790.68s]  David Williams By like number of parameters?\n",
            "[2790.68s -> 2791.64s]  Pete T. Leeson Number of parameters.\n",
            "[2791.64s -> 2795.72s]  David Williams I think people got caught up in the parameter count race in the same way\n",
            "[2795.72s -> 2800.44s]  they got caught up in the gigahertz race of processors in like the, you know, 90s and\n",
            "[2800.44s -> 2801.40s]  2000s or whatever.\n",
            "[2802.44s -> 2806.20s]  You, I think, probably have no idea how many gigahertz the processor in your phone is.\n",
            "[2807.16s -> 2810.36s]  But what you care about is what the thing can do for you.\n",
            "[2810.36s -> 2812.12s]  And there's, you know, different ways to accomplish that.\n",
            "[2812.12s -> 2814.52s]  You can bump up the clock speed.\n",
            "[2814.52s -> 2815.72s]  Sometimes that causes other problems.\n",
            "[2815.72s -> 2817.32s]  Sometimes it's not the best way to get gains.\n",
            "[2819.96s -> 2822.68s]  But I think what matters is getting the best performance.\n",
            "[2823.48s -> 2829.32s]  And, you know, we, I mean, one thing that works well about OpenAI\n",
            "[2831.56s -> 2837.96s]  is we're pretty truth seeking in just doing whatever is going to make the best performance,\n",
            "[2837.96s -> 2840.12s]  whether or not it's the most elegant solution.\n",
            "[2840.20s -> 2845.64s]  I think like LLMs are a sort of hated result in parts of the field.\n",
            "[2846.28s -> 2850.12s]  Everybody wanted to come up with a more elegant way to get to generalized intelligence.\n",
            "[2851.16s -> 2855.40s]  And we have been willing to just keep doing what works and looks like it'll keep working.\n",
            "[2855.40s -> 2859.88s]  Peter Dalmaris So I've spoken with Noam Chomsky,\n",
            "[2859.88s -> 2865.80s]  who's been kind of one of the many people that are critical of large language models being able\n",
            "[2865.80s -> 2867.64s]  to achieve general intelligence, right?\n",
            "[2867.64s -> 2871.96s]  And so it's an interesting question that they've been able to achieve so much incredible stuff.\n",
            "[2871.96s -> 2878.20s]  Do you think it's possible that large language models really is the way we build AGI?\n",
            "[2878.20s -> 2880.28s]  Noah I think it's part of the way.\n",
            "[2880.84s -> 2883.00s]  I think we need other super important things.\n",
            "[2883.00s -> 2885.32s]  Peter Dalmaris This is philosophizing a little bit.\n",
            "[2885.88s -> 2891.96s]  Like what kind of components do you think, in a technical sense or a poetic sense,\n",
            "[2892.60s -> 2896.60s]  does it need to have a body that it can experience the world directly?\n",
            "[2897.96s -> 2899.24s]  I don't think it needs that.\n",
            "[2901.24s -> 2904.60s]  But I wouldn't say any of this stuff with certainty, like we're deep into the unknown here.\n",
            "[2905.24s -> 2913.48s]  For me, a system that cannot go significantly add to the sum total of scientific knowledge\n",
            "[2913.48s -> 2918.36s]  we have access to, kind of discover, invent, whatever you want to call it, new fundamental\n",
            "[2918.36s -> 2922.28s]  science, is not a super intelligence.\n",
            "[2923.64s -> 2932.12s]  And to do that really well, I think we will need to expand on the GPT paradigm in pretty\n",
            "[2932.12s -> 2934.04s]  important ways that we're still missing ideas for.\n",
            "[2936.04s -> 2937.24s]  But I don't know what those ideas are.\n",
            "[2937.24s -> 2938.12s]  We're trying to find them.\n",
            "[2938.12s -> 2940.12s]  Noah I could argue sort of the opposite point,\n",
            "[2940.12s -> 2945.96s]  that you could have deep, big scientific breakthroughs with just the data that GPT is trained on.\n",
            "[2946.28s -> 2950.84s]  So, I think some of it is, like if you prompt it correctly.\n",
            "[2950.84s -> 2953.72s]  Noah Look, if an oracle told me far from the future\n",
            "[2953.72s -> 2959.00s]  that GPT-10 turned out to be a true AGI somehow, you know, maybe just some very small new ideas,\n",
            "[2959.64s -> 2961.88s]  I would be like, okay, I can believe that.\n",
            "[2962.84s -> 2966.28s]  Not what I would have expected sitting here, would have said a new big idea, but I can believe that.\n",
            "[2966.44s -> 2974.92s]  This prompting chain, if you extend it very far, and then increase at scale the number\n",
            "[2974.92s -> 2979.40s]  of those interactions, like what kind of, these things start getting integrated into\n",
            "[2979.40s -> 2983.40s]  human society, and it starts building on top of each other.\n",
            "[2983.40s -> 2985.96s]  I mean, like, I don't think we understand what that looks like.\n",
            "[2985.96s -> 2987.32s]  Like you said, it's been six days.\n",
            "[2987.32s -> 2989.32s]  Noah The thing that I am so excited about with\n",
            "[2989.32s -> 2994.60s]  this is not that it's a system that kind of goes off and does its own thing, but it's\n",
            "[2994.92s -> 2997.80s]  this tool that humans are using in this feedback loop.\n",
            "[2999.00s -> 3000.44s]  Helpful for us for a bunch of reasons.\n",
            "[3000.44s -> 3005.00s]  We get to, you know, learn more about trajectories through multiple iterations.\n",
            "[3005.00s -> 3012.52s]  But I am excited about a world where AI is an extension of human will and a amplifier\n",
            "[3012.52s -> 3018.68s]  of our abilities and this like, you know, most useful tool yet created.\n",
            "[3018.68s -> 3020.52s]  And that is certainly how people are using it.\n",
            "[3020.60s -> 3022.28s]  And that is certainly how people are using it.\n",
            "[3022.92s -> 3024.92s]  And I mean, just like, look at Twitter.\n",
            "[3024.92s -> 3027.00s]  Like the results are amazing.\n",
            "[3027.00s -> 3029.88s]  People's like self-reported happiness with getting to work with this are great.\n",
            "[3031.08s -> 3036.68s]  So yeah, like maybe we never build AGI, but we just make humans super great.\n",
            "[3037.48s -> 3038.28s]  Still a huge win.\n",
            "[3038.28s -> 3041.40s]  Jeff Yeah, I said I'm part of those people.\n",
            "[3041.40s -> 3047.48s]  Like the amount, I derive a lot of happiness from programming together with GPT.\n",
            "[3048.12s -> 3051.96s]  Part of it is a little bit of terror of-\n",
            "[3051.96s -> 3053.16s]  Chris Can you say more about that?\n",
            "[3053.16s -> 3057.40s]  Jeff There's a meme I saw today that everybody's\n",
            "[3057.40s -> 3061.08s]  freaking out about sort of GPT taking programmer jobs.\n",
            "[3061.08s -> 3066.76s]  No, it's the reality is just, it's going to be taking like, if it's going to take your\n",
            "[3066.76s -> 3068.84s]  job, it means you were a shitty programmer.\n",
            "[3068.84s -> 3070.36s]  There's some truth to that.\n",
            "[3071.32s -> 3076.20s]  Maybe there's some human element that's really fundamental to the creative act\n",
            "[3077.16s -> 3081.40s]  to the act of genius that is in great design that's involved in programming.\n",
            "[3081.40s -> 3088.04s]  And maybe I'm just really impressed by all the boilerplate that I don't see as boilerplate,\n",
            "[3088.04s -> 3089.88s]  but is actually pretty boilerplate.\n",
            "[3089.88s -> 3092.44s]  Chris Yeah, and maybe that you create like, you\n",
            "[3092.44s -> 3095.08s]  know, in a day of programming, you have one really important idea.\n",
            "[3095.08s -> 3095.40s]  Jeff Yeah.\n",
            "[3095.40s -> 3097.40s]  Chris And that's the contribution.\n",
            "[3097.40s -> 3099.00s]  Jeff That would be, that's the contribution.\n",
            "[3099.00s -> 3101.16s]  And there may be like, I think we're going to find.\n",
            "[3101.64s -> 3106.12s]  So I suspect that is happening with great programmers and that GPT like models are far\n",
            "[3106.12s -> 3109.08s]  away from that one thing, even though they're going to automate a lot of other programming.\n",
            "[3110.12s -> 3117.80s]  But again, most programmers have some sense of, you know, anxiety about what the future\n",
            "[3117.80s -> 3118.36s]  is going to look like.\n",
            "[3118.36s -> 3120.04s]  But mostly they're like, this is amazing.\n",
            "[3120.04s -> 3121.64s]  I am 10 times more productive.\n",
            "[3121.64s -> 3123.24s]  Don't ever take this away from me.\n",
            "[3123.24s -> 3126.20s]  There's not a lot of people that use it and say like, turn this off, you know?\n",
            "[3126.20s -> 3127.08s]  Chris Yeah.\n",
            "[3127.96s -> 3128.28s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[3128.28s -> 3133.80s]  So I think, so to speak to the psychology of terror is more like, this is awesome.\n",
            "[3133.80s -> 3134.68s]  This is too awesome.\n",
            "[3134.68s -> 3135.16s]  I'm scared.\n",
            "[3135.16s -> 3135.40s]  Jeff It's too awesome.\n",
            "[3135.40s -> 3136.04s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[3136.04s -> 3136.76s]  There is a little bit of-\n",
            "[3136.76s -> 3138.12s]  Chris This coffee tastes too good.\n",
            "[3139.56s -> 3142.44s]  Jeff You know, when Kasparov lost to Deep Blue,\n",
            "[3142.44s -> 3146.60s]  somebody said, and maybe it was him, that like chess is over now.\n",
            "[3147.16s -> 3152.28s]  If an AI can beat a human at chess, then no one's going to bother to keep playing, right?\n",
            "[3152.28s -> 3154.60s]  Because like, what's the purpose of us or whatever?\n",
            "[3154.60s -> 3157.88s]  That was 30 years ago, 25 years ago, something like that.\n",
            "[3159.08s -> 3162.28s]  I believe that chess has never been more popular than it is right now.\n",
            "[3163.40s -> 3167.96s]  And people keep wanting to play and wanting to watch.\n",
            "[3167.96s -> 3170.28s]  And by the way, we don't watch two AIs play each other,\n",
            "[3171.16s -> 3175.64s]  which would be a far better game in some sense than whatever else.\n",
            "[3176.28s -> 3181.80s]  But that's not what we choose to do.\n",
            "[3182.12s -> 3185.16s]  We are somehow much more interested in what humans do in this sense.\n",
            "[3185.80s -> 3188.76s]  And whether or not Magnus loses to that kid,\n",
            "[3189.48s -> 3192.92s]  then what happens when two much, much better AIs play each other?\n",
            "[3192.92s -> 3195.88s]  Chris Well, actually, when two AIs play each other,\n",
            "[3195.88s -> 3197.96s]  it's not a better game by our definition of better.\n",
            "[3197.96s -> 3199.08s]  Jeff Because we just can't understand it.\n",
            "[3199.08s -> 3201.88s]  Chris No, I think they just draw each other.\n",
            "[3201.88s -> 3206.60s]  I think the human flaws, and this might apply across the spectrum here,\n",
            "[3206.60s -> 3211.32s]  with AIs will make life way better, but we'll still want drama.\n",
            "[3211.48s -> 3212.44s]  We will. That's for sure.\n",
            "[3212.44s -> 3214.60s]  Jeff We'll still want imperfection and flaws,\n",
            "[3214.60s -> 3216.60s]  and AI will not have as much of that.\n",
            "[3216.60s -> 3219.56s]  Chris Look, I mean, I hate to sound like utopic tech bro here,\n",
            "[3219.56s -> 3227.00s]  but if you'll excuse me for three seconds, like the level of the increase in quality of life\n",
            "[3227.00s -> 3230.44s]  that AI can deliver is extraordinary.\n",
            "[3231.80s -> 3235.72s]  We can make the world amazing, and we can make people's lives amazing.\n",
            "[3235.72s -> 3238.28s]  We can cure diseases, we can increase material wealth,\n",
            "[3238.28s -> 3241.88s]  we can help people be happier, more fulfilled, all of these sorts of things.\n",
            "[3243.96s -> 3246.12s]  And then people are like, oh, well, no one is going to work.\n",
            "[3246.12s -> 3252.76s]  But people want status, people want drama, people want new things, people want to create,\n",
            "[3252.76s -> 3254.36s]  people want to feel useful.\n",
            "[3255.88s -> 3260.04s]  People want to do all these things, and we're just going to find new and different ways to do them,\n",
            "[3260.04s -> 3264.52s]  even in a vastly better, unimaginably good standard of living world.\n",
            "[3264.76s -> 3268.28s]  But that world, the positive trajectories with AI,\n",
            "[3268.28s -> 3271.40s]  that world is with an AI that's aligned with humans.\n",
            "[3271.40s -> 3275.72s]  It doesn't hurt, doesn't limit, doesn't try to get rid of humans.\n",
            "[3275.72s -> 3280.20s]  And there's some folks who consider all the different problems\n",
            "[3280.20s -> 3281.80s]  with a super intelligent AI system.\n",
            "[3281.80s -> 3285.32s]  So one of them is Eliezer Yudkowsky.\n",
            "[3286.60s -> 3290.12s]  He warns that AI will likely kill all humans,\n",
            "[3290.92s -> 3292.52s]  and there's a bunch of different cases,\n",
            "[3292.68s -> 3294.36s]  and there's a bunch of different cases.\n",
            "[3294.36s -> 3301.56s]  But I think one way to summarize it is that it's almost impossible\n",
            "[3301.56s -> 3304.52s]  to keep AI aligned as it becomes super intelligent.\n",
            "[3305.16s -> 3307.40s]  Can you steel man the case for that?\n",
            "[3307.40s -> 3312.52s]  And to what degree do you disagree with that trajectory?\n",
            "[3312.52s -> 3318.60s]  So first of all, I will say I think that there's some chance of that.\n",
            "[3318.60s -> 3320.36s]  And it's really important to acknowledge it,\n",
            "[3320.36s -> 3321.48s]  because if we don't talk about it,\n",
            "[3321.48s -> 3323.48s]  if we don't treat it as potentially real,\n",
            "[3323.48s -> 3325.24s]  we won't put enough effort into solving it.\n",
            "[3326.68s -> 3330.84s]  And I think we do have to discover new techniques to be able to solve it.\n",
            "[3332.44s -> 3335.72s]  I think a lot of the predictions, this is true for any new field,\n",
            "[3335.72s -> 3339.00s]  but a lot of the predictions about AI in terms of capabilities,\n",
            "[3340.20s -> 3343.80s]  in terms of what the safety challenges\n",
            "[3343.80s -> 3346.84s]  and the easy parts are going to be, have turned out to be wrong.\n",
            "[3347.72s -> 3350.20s]  The only way I know how to solve a problem like this\n",
            "[3350.84s -> 3356.44s]  is iterating our way through it, learning early,\n",
            "[3358.36s -> 3362.36s]  and limiting the number of one-shot-to-get-it-right scenarios that we have.\n",
            "[3363.32s -> 3369.24s]  To steel man, well, I can't just pick like one AI safety case or AI alignment case,\n",
            "[3369.24s -> 3373.88s]  but I think Eliezer wrote a really great blog post.\n",
            "[3374.12s -> 3377.56s]  I think some of his work has been somewhat difficult to follow\n",
            "[3377.56s -> 3381.16s]  or had what I view as quite significant logical flaws.\n",
            "[3381.16s -> 3386.44s]  But he wrote this one blog post outlining why he believed\n",
            "[3386.44s -> 3388.84s]  that alignment was such a hard problem that I thought was,\n",
            "[3389.72s -> 3390.92s]  again, don't agree with a lot of it,\n",
            "[3390.92s -> 3393.64s]  but well-reasoned and thoughtful and very worth reading.\n",
            "[3394.44s -> 3396.36s]  So I think I'd point people to that as the steel man.\n",
            "[3397.00s -> 3399.16s]  Yeah, and I'll also have a conversation with him.\n",
            "[3399.88s -> 3405.08s]  There is some aspect, and I'm torn here because\n",
            "[3406.92s -> 3409.96s]  it's difficult to reason about the exponential improvement of technology.\n",
            "[3412.28s -> 3418.92s]  But also I've seen time and time again how transparent and iterative trying out,\n",
            "[3421.64s -> 3425.48s]  as you improve the technology, trying it out, releasing it, testing it,\n",
            "[3425.48s -> 3430.76s]  how that can improve your understanding of the technology\n",
            "[3432.20s -> 3434.92s]  such that the philosophy of how to do, for example,\n",
            "[3434.92s -> 3437.24s]  safety of any kind of technology, but AI safety,\n",
            "[3438.36s -> 3440.28s]  gets adjusted over time rapidly.\n",
            "[3441.00s -> 3443.80s]  A lot of the formative AI safety work was done\n",
            "[3443.80s -> 3445.72s]  before people even believed in deep learning.\n",
            "[3446.28s -> 3449.80s]  And certainly before people believed in large language models.\n",
            "[3449.80s -> 3454.12s]  And I don't think it's updated enough given everything we've learned now.\n",
            "[3454.12s -> 3455.72s]  And everything we will learn going forward.\n",
            "[3455.72s -> 3459.40s]  So I think it's got to be this very tight feedback loop.\n",
            "[3459.40s -> 3461.48s]  I think the theory does play a real role, of course,\n",
            "[3462.04s -> 3465.96s]  but continuing to learn what we learn from how the technology trajectory goes\n",
            "[3468.36s -> 3469.56s]  is quite important.\n",
            "[3469.56s -> 3473.64s]  I think now is a very good time, and we're trying to figure out how to do this,\n",
            "[3473.64s -> 3477.32s]  to significantly ramp up technical alignment work.\n",
            "[3477.32s -> 3479.48s]  I think we have new tools, we have new understanding,\n",
            "[3481.00s -> 3483.80s]  and there's a lot of work that's important to do.\n",
            "[3485.08s -> 3485.80s]  That we can do now.\n",
            "[3485.80s -> 3489.88s]  So one of the main concerns here is something called AI takeoff,\n",
            "[3490.60s -> 3494.60s]  or a fast takeoff, that the exponential improvement\n",
            "[3494.60s -> 3497.00s]  will be really fast to where...\n",
            "[3497.00s -> 3497.80s]  Like in days.\n",
            "[3497.80s -> 3498.60s]  In days, yeah.\n",
            "[3503.08s -> 3506.20s]  This is a pretty serious, at least to me,\n",
            "[3506.20s -> 3507.88s]  it's become more of a serious concern.\n",
            "[3509.16s -> 3511.96s]  Just how amazing Chad GPT turned out to be,\n",
            "[3511.96s -> 3513.56s]  and then the improvement in GPT-4.\n",
            "[3514.44s -> 3516.76s]  Almost like to where it surprised everyone,\n",
            "[3516.76s -> 3519.56s]  seemingly, you can correct me, including you.\n",
            "[3519.56s -> 3522.52s]  So GPT-4 is not surprising me at all in terms of reception there.\n",
            "[3522.52s -> 3524.84s]  Chad GPT surprised us a little bit,\n",
            "[3524.84s -> 3526.68s]  but I still was advocating that we do it,\n",
            "[3526.68s -> 3528.28s]  because I thought it was going to do really great.\n",
            "[3529.32s -> 3532.36s]  So maybe I thought it would have been\n",
            "[3535.88s -> 3538.20s]  the 10th fastest growing product in history,\n",
            "[3538.20s -> 3539.56s]  and not the number one fastest.\n",
            "[3540.52s -> 3542.60s]  I'm like, okay, I think it's hard.\n",
            "[3542.60s -> 3544.12s]  You should never kind of assume something's going to be\n",
            "[3544.12s -> 3545.72s]  like the most successful product launch ever.\n",
            "[3546.52s -> 3548.76s]  But we thought it was, or at least many of us thought,\n",
            "[3548.76s -> 3549.80s]  it was going to be really good.\n",
            "[3550.60s -> 3553.88s]  GPT-4 has weirdly not been that much of an update for most people.\n",
            "[3554.76s -> 3556.52s]  They're like, oh, it's better than 3.5,\n",
            "[3556.52s -> 3558.44s]  but I thought it was going to be better than 3.5,\n",
            "[3558.44s -> 3560.20s]  and it's cool, but this is like...\n",
            "[3563.24s -> 3564.68s]  Someone said to me over the weekend,\n",
            "[3565.96s -> 3567.40s]  you shipped an AGI,\n",
            "[3567.40s -> 3569.96s]  and I somehow like I'm just going about my daily life,\n",
            "[3569.96s -> 3570.92s]  and I'm not that impressed.\n",
            "[3572.60s -> 3574.44s]  And I obviously don't think we shipped an AGI,\n",
            "[3575.40s -> 3579.80s]  but I get the point, and the world is continuing on.\n",
            "[3580.60s -> 3584.12s]  When you build, or somebody builds an artificial general intelligence,\n",
            "[3584.12s -> 3585.72s]  would that be fast or slow?\n",
            "[3585.72s -> 3588.36s]  Would we know what's happening or not?\n",
            "[3589.00s -> 3592.12s]  Would we go about our day on the weekend or not?\n",
            "[3592.12s -> 3593.56s]  So I'll come back to the,\n",
            "[3593.56s -> 3595.24s]  would we go about our day or not thing.\n",
            "[3595.24s -> 3597.88s]  I think there's like a bunch of interesting lessons from COVID\n",
            "[3597.88s -> 3599.88s]  and the UFO videos and a whole bunch of other stuff\n",
            "[3599.88s -> 3601.24s]  that we can talk to there.\n",
            "[3601.32s -> 3603.56s]  But on the takeoff question,\n",
            "[3603.56s -> 3607.56s]  if we imagine a two by two matrix of short timelines till AGI starts,\n",
            "[3608.36s -> 3610.28s]  long timelines till AGI starts,\n",
            "[3610.28s -> 3611.56s]  slow takeoff, fast takeoff,\n",
            "[3612.20s -> 3615.72s]  do you have an instinct on what do you think the safest quadrant would be?\n",
            "[3615.72s -> 3619.32s]  So the different options are like next year...\n",
            "[3619.32s -> 3622.20s]  Yeah, say the takeoff, we start the takeoff period.\n",
            "[3623.16s -> 3624.52s]  Next year or in 20 years.\n",
            "[3624.52s -> 3625.24s]  20 years.\n",
            "[3625.24s -> 3628.44s]  And then it takes one year or 10 years.\n",
            "[3629.00s -> 3630.68s]  Well, you can even say one year or five years,\n",
            "[3630.68s -> 3632.68s]  whatever you want for the takeoff.\n",
            "[3633.40s -> 3637.80s]  I feel like now is safer.\n",
            "[3638.84s -> 3639.72s]  So do I.\n",
            "[3639.72s -> 3640.36s]  So I'm in the...\n",
            "[3640.36s -> 3641.48s]  Longer now.\n",
            "[3641.48s -> 3647.16s]  I'm in the slow takeoff short timelines is the most likely good world.\n",
            "[3647.16s -> 3652.12s]  And we optimize the company to have maximum impact in that world,\n",
            "[3652.12s -> 3653.64s]  to try to push for that kind of a world.\n",
            "[3654.36s -> 3656.12s]  And the decisions that we make are,\n",
            "[3656.20s -> 3659.24s]  you know, there's like probability masses, but weighted towards that.\n",
            "[3660.04s -> 3665.24s]  And I think I'm very afraid of the fast takeoffs.\n",
            "[3666.04s -> 3668.92s]  I think in the longer timelines, it's harder to have a slow takeoff.\n",
            "[3668.92s -> 3670.28s]  There's a bunch of other problems too.\n",
            "[3671.48s -> 3672.76s]  But that's what we're trying to do.\n",
            "[3672.76s -> 3674.20s]  Do you think GPT-4 is an AGI?\n",
            "[3676.92s -> 3681.96s]  I think if it is, just like with the UFO videos,\n",
            "[3682.04s -> 3684.60s]  we wouldn't know immediately.\n",
            "[3686.20s -> 3687.88s]  I think it's actually hard to know that.\n",
            "[3687.88s -> 3690.92s]  But I've been thinking, playing with GPT-4\n",
            "[3693.08s -> 3695.88s]  and thinking, how would I know if it's an AGI or not?\n",
            "[3696.68s -> 3700.36s]  Because I think in terms of, to put it in a different way,\n",
            "[3702.28s -> 3705.48s]  how much of AGI is the interface I have with the thing?\n",
            "[3706.60s -> 3711.16s]  And how much of it is the interface I have with the thing?\n",
            "[3711.96s -> 3713.88s]  Is the actual wisdom inside of it?\n",
            "[3714.68s -> 3718.36s]  Like, part of me thinks that you can have a model\n",
            "[3718.36s -> 3721.48s]  that's capable of super intelligence,\n",
            "[3722.28s -> 3724.20s]  and it just hasn't been quite unlocked.\n",
            "[3725.00s -> 3728.04s]  What I saw with ChatGPT, just doing that little bit of RL,\n",
            "[3728.04s -> 3731.88s]  well, human feedback, makes the thing somehow much more impressive,\n",
            "[3731.88s -> 3733.16s]  much more usable.\n",
            "[3733.16s -> 3735.24s]  So maybe if you have a few more tricks, like you said,\n",
            "[3735.24s -> 3737.40s]  there's like hundreds of tricks inside OpenAI,\n",
            "[3737.40s -> 3741.56s]  a few more tricks and all of a sudden, holy shit, this thing.\n",
            "[3741.56s -> 3744.76s]  So I think that GPT-4, although quite impressive,\n",
            "[3744.76s -> 3745.88s]  is definitely not an AGI.\n",
            "[3745.88s -> 3747.56s]  But isn't it remarkable we're having this debate?\n",
            "[3747.56s -> 3748.52s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[3748.52s -> 3750.04s]  So what's your intuition why it's not?\n",
            "[3751.56s -> 3752.92s]  I think we're getting into the phase\n",
            "[3752.92s -> 3755.56s]  where specific definitions of AGI really matter.\n",
            "[3756.84s -> 3758.84s]  Or we just say, you know, I know it when I see it\n",
            "[3758.84s -> 3760.60s]  and I'm not even going to bother with the definition.\n",
            "[3761.48s -> 3763.16s]  But under the, I know it when I see it,\n",
            "[3767.96s -> 3770.68s]  it doesn't feel that close to me.\n",
            "[3772.52s -> 3777.08s]  Like if I were reading a sci-fi book\n",
            "[3777.08s -> 3779.24s]  and there was a character that was an AGI\n",
            "[3779.24s -> 3780.68s]  and that character was GPT-4,\n",
            "[3781.48s -> 3782.92s]  I'd be like, well, this is a shitty book.\n",
            "[3783.64s -> 3784.76s]  You know, that's not very cool.\n",
            "[3784.76s -> 3786.76s]  Like I would have hoped we had done better.\n",
            "[3787.56s -> 3790.12s]  To me, some of the human factors are important here.\n",
            "[3791.24s -> 3794.92s]  Do you think GPT-4 is conscious?\n",
            "[3795.80s -> 3800.44s]  I think no, but I asked GPT-4 and of course it says no.\n",
            "[3800.44s -> 3801.80s]  Do you think GPT-4 is conscious?\n",
            "[3806.36s -> 3810.36s]  I think it knows how to fake consciousness.\n",
            "[3810.36s -> 3811.08s]  Yes.\n",
            "[3811.08s -> 3812.36s]  How to fake consciousness?\n",
            "[3812.36s -> 3812.86s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[3813.80s -> 3818.20s]  If you provide the right interface and the right prompts.\n",
            "[3818.20s -> 3821.00s]  It definitely can answer as if it were.\n",
            "[3821.00s -> 3821.80s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[3821.80s -> 3823.24s]  And then it starts getting weird.\n",
            "[3823.80s -> 3825.88s]  It's like, what is the difference between\n",
            "[3825.88s -> 3827.56s]  pretending to be conscious and conscious?\n",
            "[3827.56s -> 3829.40s]  I mean, you don't know, obviously,\n",
            "[3829.40s -> 3832.20s]  we can go to like the freshman year dorm,\n",
            "[3832.20s -> 3833.80s]  late at Saturday night kind of thing.\n",
            "[3833.80s -> 3835.88s]  You don't know that you're not a GPT-4 rollout\n",
            "[3835.88s -> 3837.00s]  in some advanced simulation.\n",
            "[3837.00s -> 3838.20s]  Yeah, yes.\n",
            "[3838.20s -> 3840.68s]  So if we're willing to go to that level.\n",
            "[3841.32s -> 3842.76s]  Sure, I live in that level.\n",
            "[3843.88s -> 3845.88s]  But that's an important level.\n",
            "[3846.76s -> 3850.52s]  That's an important, that's a really important level\n",
            "[3850.52s -> 3854.20s]  because one of the things that makes it not conscious\n",
            "[3854.20s -> 3857.00s]  is declaring that it's a computer program,\n",
            "[3857.00s -> 3858.12s]  therefore it can't be conscious,\n",
            "[3858.20s -> 3860.84s]  so I'm not going to, I'm not even going to acknowledge it.\n",
            "[3861.80s -> 3864.12s]  But that just puts it in the category of other.\n",
            "[3864.12s -> 3868.52s]  I believe AI can be conscious.\n",
            "[3869.96s -> 3872.44s]  So then the question is, what would it look like\n",
            "[3872.44s -> 3873.24s]  when it's conscious?\n",
            "[3874.12s -> 3875.16s]  What would it behave like?\n",
            "[3876.04s -> 3879.00s]  And it would probably say things like,\n",
            "[3879.00s -> 3880.28s]  first of all, I am conscious.\n",
            "[3880.92s -> 3884.92s]  Second of all, display capability of suffering.\n",
            "[3885.16s -> 3886.68s]  An understanding of self.\n",
            "[3888.84s -> 3893.84s]  Of having some memory of itself\n",
            "[3894.60s -> 3896.36s]  and maybe interactions with you.\n",
            "[3896.36s -> 3898.84s]  Maybe there's a personalization aspect to it.\n",
            "[3898.84s -> 3900.84s]  And I think all of those capabilities\n",
            "[3900.84s -> 3902.68s]  are interface capabilities,\n",
            "[3902.68s -> 3905.24s]  not fundamental aspects of the actual knowledge\n",
            "[3905.24s -> 3906.12s]  inside the neural net.\n",
            "[3907.24s -> 3909.56s]  Maybe I can just share a few disconnected thoughts here.\n",
            "[3909.56s -> 3910.12s]  Sure.\n",
            "[3910.12s -> 3912.76s]  But I'll tell you something that Ilya said to me once\n",
            "[3912.76s -> 3913.72s]  a long time ago.\n",
            "[3913.72s -> 3916.12s]  That has like stuck in my head.\n",
            "[3916.84s -> 3917.88s]  Ilya Sutskever.\n",
            "[3917.88s -> 3920.44s]  Yes, my co-founder and the chief scientist of OpenAI\n",
            "[3920.44s -> 3922.84s]  and sort of legend in the field.\n",
            "[3924.68s -> 3925.72s]  We were talking about how you would know\n",
            "[3925.72s -> 3927.16s]  if a model were conscious or not.\n",
            "[3928.04s -> 3930.84s]  And I've heard many ideas thrown around,\n",
            "[3930.84s -> 3933.32s]  but he said one that I think is interesting.\n",
            "[3933.88s -> 3937.32s]  If you trained a model on a data set\n",
            "[3937.32s -> 3940.20s]  that you were extremely careful to have\n",
            "[3940.20s -> 3943.24s]  no mentions of consciousness or anything like that,\n",
            "[3943.32s -> 3946.68s]  or anything close to it in the training process.\n",
            "[3947.24s -> 3948.84s]  Like not only was the word never there,\n",
            "[3948.84s -> 3951.96s]  but nothing about the sort of subjective experience of it\n",
            "[3951.96s -> 3953.24s]  or related concepts.\n",
            "[3954.76s -> 3959.40s]  And then you started talking to that model about,\n",
            "[3960.84s -> 3966.76s]  here are some things that you weren't trained about.\n",
            "[3966.76s -> 3968.52s]  And for most of them, the model was like,\n",
            "[3968.52s -> 3970.04s]  I have no idea what you're talking about.\n",
            "[3970.04s -> 3971.16s]  But then you asked it,\n",
            "[3971.16s -> 3975.80s]  you sort of described the experience,\n",
            "[3975.80s -> 3977.64s]  the subjective experience of consciousness.\n",
            "[3978.28s -> 3980.12s]  And the model immediately responded,\n",
            "[3980.12s -> 3981.32s]  unlike the other questions.\n",
            "[3981.32s -> 3983.00s]  Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.\n",
            "[3985.56s -> 3986.92s]  That would update me somewhat.\n",
            "[3987.80s -> 3991.64s]  I don't know, because that's more in the space of facts\n",
            "[3991.64s -> 3993.96s]  versus like emotions.\n",
            "[3993.96s -> 3996.12s]  I don't think consciousness is an emotion.\n",
            "[3997.00s -> 4000.36s]  I think consciousness is ability to sort of\n",
            "[4000.36s -> 4004.04s]  experience this world really deeply.\n",
            "[4004.04s -> 4006.12s]  There's a movie called Ex Machina.\n",
            "[4006.92s -> 4008.04s]  I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it.\n",
            "[4008.04s -> 4008.76s]  You haven't seen it?\n",
            "[4008.76s -> 4009.26s]  No.\n",
            "[4009.72s -> 4013.08s]  The director, Alex Garland, who I had a conversation.\n",
            "[4013.08s -> 4016.12s]  So it's where AGI system is built,\n",
            "[4016.12s -> 4018.84s]  embodied in the body of a woman.\n",
            "[4019.80s -> 4021.96s]  And something he doesn't make explicit,\n",
            "[4021.96s -> 4027.08s]  but he said he put in the movie without describing why.\n",
            "[4027.08s -> 4030.12s]  But at the end of the movie, spoiler alert,\n",
            "[4030.68s -> 4033.56s]  when the AI escapes, the woman escapes,\n",
            "[4036.28s -> 4040.36s]  she smiles for nobody, for no audience.\n",
            "[4042.12s -> 4046.44s]  She smiles at the freedom she's experiencing.\n",
            "[4047.24s -> 4049.64s]  Experiencing, I don't know, anthropomorphizing.\n",
            "[4049.64s -> 4051.40s]  But he said the smile to me\n",
            "[4051.40s -> 4055.48s]  was passing the Turing test for consciousness.\n",
            "[4055.48s -> 4057.00s]  That you smile for no audience.\n",
            "[4057.64s -> 4058.76s]  You smile for yourself.\n",
            "[4059.32s -> 4060.36s]  That's an interesting thought.\n",
            "[4061.40s -> 4065.48s]  It's like you take in an experience for the experience's sake.\n",
            "[4066.04s -> 4066.54s]  I don't know.\n",
            "[4068.12s -> 4069.80s]  That seemed more like consciousness\n",
            "[4069.80s -> 4072.12s]  versus the ability to convince somebody else\n",
            "[4072.12s -> 4072.92s]  that you're conscious.\n",
            "[4073.88s -> 4077.00s]  And that feels more like a realm of emotion versus facts.\n",
            "[4077.00s -> 4078.76s]  But yes, if it knows-\n",
            "[4078.76s -> 4081.00s]  So I think there's many other tasks,\n",
            "[4082.12s -> 4085.64s]  tests like that, that we could look at too.\n",
            "[4086.20s -> 4092.84s]  But my personal belief's consciousness\n",
            "[4092.84s -> 4095.88s]  as if something very strange is going on.\n",
            "[4095.88s -> 4098.12s]  I'll just say that.\n",
            "[4098.12s -> 4101.96s]  Do you think it's attached to the particular medium\n",
            "[4101.96s -> 4103.48s]  of the human brain?\n",
            "[4103.48s -> 4105.16s]  Do you think an AI can be conscious?\n",
            "[4106.68s -> 4110.12s]  I'm certainly willing to believe that consciousness\n",
            "[4110.12s -> 4111.56s]  is somehow the fundamental substrate\n",
            "[4111.56s -> 4113.80s]  and we're all just in the dream or the simulation or whatever.\n",
            "[4113.80s -> 4115.32s]  I think it's interesting how much\n",
            "[4117.08s -> 4119.64s]  the Silicon Valley religion of the simulation\n",
            "[4119.64s -> 4122.20s]  has gotten close to Brahman\n",
            "[4122.20s -> 4124.52s]  and how little space there is between them.\n",
            "[4125.80s -> 4127.24s]  But from these very different directions.\n",
            "[4127.24s -> 4128.60s]  So maybe that's what's going on.\n",
            "[4129.32s -> 4134.20s]  But if it is physical reality as we understand it\n",
            "[4134.20s -> 4135.48s]  and all of the rules of the game\n",
            "[4135.48s -> 4136.28s]  and what we think they are,\n",
            "[4137.00s -> 4138.68s]  then there's something.\n",
            "[4138.68s -> 4139.96s]  I still think it's something very strange.\n",
            "[4141.56s -> 4143.56s]  Just to linger on the alignment problem a little bit.\n",
            "[4143.96s -> 4145.16s]  Maybe the control problem.\n",
            "[4146.04s -> 4147.64s]  What are the different ways you think\n",
            "[4148.52s -> 4151.88s]  AGI might go wrong that concern you?\n",
            "[4151.88s -> 4156.04s]  You said that fear, a little bit of fear\n",
            "[4156.04s -> 4157.40s]  is very appropriate here.\n",
            "[4157.40s -> 4158.92s]  You've been very transparent\n",
            "[4158.92s -> 4161.08s]  about being mostly excited but also scared.\n",
            "[4161.08s -> 4163.56s]  I think it's weird when people think it's like a big dunk\n",
            "[4163.56s -> 4165.16s]  that I say I'm a little bit afraid\n",
            "[4165.16s -> 4167.88s]  and I think it'd be crazy not to be a little bit afraid.\n",
            "[4169.08s -> 4170.84s]  And I empathize with people who are a lot afraid.\n",
            "[4171.48s -> 4173.08s]  What do you think about that moment\n",
            "[4173.08s -> 4175.40s]  of a system becoming super intelligent?\n",
            "[4175.40s -> 4176.44s]  Do you think you would know?\n",
            "[4178.28s -> 4181.40s]  The current worries that I have are that\n",
            "[4183.72s -> 4186.52s]  there are going to be disinformation problems\n",
            "[4186.52s -> 4190.12s]  or economic shocks or something else\n",
            "[4191.16s -> 4194.28s]  at a level far beyond anything we're prepared for.\n",
            "[4195.48s -> 4197.56s]  And that doesn't require super intelligence.\n",
            "[4197.56s -> 4199.96s]  That doesn't require a super deep alignment.\n",
            "[4201.32s -> 4203.16s]  The machine waking up and trying to deceive us.\n",
            "[4205.16s -> 4207.96s]  And I don't think that gets enough attention.\n",
            "[4209.24s -> 4210.52s]  I mean, it's starting to get more, I guess.\n",
            "[4211.40s -> 4214.20s]  So these systems deployed at scale\n",
            "[4214.92s -> 4219.48s]  can shift the winds of geopolitics and so on.\n",
            "[4219.48s -> 4221.24s]  How would we know if on Twitter\n",
            "[4221.24s -> 4225.40s]  we were mostly having LLMs direct\n",
            "[4227.16s -> 4229.64s]  whatever's flowing through that hive mind?\n",
            "[4231.16s -> 4233.80s]  Yeah, on Twitter and then perhaps beyond.\n",
            "[4233.80s -> 4236.36s]  And then as on Twitter, so everywhere else eventually.\n",
            "[4237.64s -> 4238.60s]  Yeah, how would we know?\n",
            "[4239.16s -> 4241.00s]  My statement is we wouldn't.\n",
            "[4242.28s -> 4243.88s]  And that's a real danger.\n",
            "[4244.92s -> 4246.44s]  How do you prevent that danger?\n",
            "[4246.44s -> 4248.52s]  I think there's a lot of things you can try.\n",
            "[4250.52s -> 4254.04s]  But at this point, it is a certainty.\n",
            "[4254.04s -> 4258.12s]  There are soon going to be a lot of capable open-sourced LLMs\n",
            "[4258.12s -> 4260.76s]  with very few to no safety controls on them.\n",
            "[4261.80s -> 4266.44s]  And so you can try with regulatory approaches.\n",
            "[4267.00s -> 4268.92s]  You can try with using more powerful AIs\n",
            "[4268.92s -> 4270.20s]  to detect this stuff happening.\n",
            "[4271.16s -> 4273.24s]  I'd like us to start trying a lot of things very soon.\n",
            "[4274.28s -> 4275.64s]  How do you, under this pressure\n",
            "[4275.64s -> 4279.24s]  that there's going to be a lot of open source,\n",
            "[4279.24s -> 4281.48s]  there's going to be a lot of large language models,\n",
            "[4282.44s -> 4283.40s]  under this pressure,\n",
            "[4284.44s -> 4286.92s]  how do you continue prioritizing safety?\n",
            "[4287.48s -> 4289.96s]  Versus, I mean, there's several pressures.\n",
            "[4290.12s -> 4292.04s]  So one of them is a market-driven pressure\n",
            "[4292.04s -> 4293.88s]  from other companies,\n",
            "[4295.16s -> 4299.08s]  Google, Apple, Meta, and smaller companies.\n",
            "[4299.08s -> 4301.08s]  How do you resist the pressure from that?\n",
            "[4301.08s -> 4302.76s]  Or how do you navigate that pressure?\n",
            "[4302.76s -> 4304.36s]  You stick with what you believe\n",
            "[4304.36s -> 4305.72s]  and you stick to your mission.\n",
            "[4305.72s -> 4309.32s]  I'm sure people will get ahead of us in all sorts of ways\n",
            "[4309.32s -> 4310.92s]  and take shortcuts we're not going to take.\n",
            "[4312.28s -> 4314.76s]  And we just aren't going to do that.\n",
            "[4314.76s -> 4316.60s]  How do you out-compete them?\n",
            "[4317.56s -> 4319.88s]  I think there's going to be many AGIs in the world.\n",
            "[4319.88s -> 4321.64s]  So we don't have to like out-compete everyone.\n",
            "[4322.36s -> 4323.40s]  We're going to contribute one.\n",
            "[4324.60s -> 4326.12s]  Other people are going to contribute some.\n",
            "[4326.76s -> 4329.64s]  I think multiple AGIs in the world\n",
            "[4329.64s -> 4331.40s]  with some differences in how they're built\n",
            "[4331.40s -> 4333.00s]  and what they do and what they're focused on.\n",
            "[4333.56s -> 4334.84s]  I think that's good.\n",
            "[4336.28s -> 4338.04s]  We have a very unusual structure.\n",
            "[4338.04s -> 4341.88s]  So we don't have this incentive to capture unlimited value.\n",
            "[4341.88s -> 4343.32s]  I worry about the people who do,\n",
            "[4343.32s -> 4345.08s]  but hopefully it's all going to work out.\n",
            "[4345.88s -> 4350.68s]  But we're a weird org and we're good at resisting.\n",
            "[4351.24s -> 4354.84s]  We have been a misunderstood and badly mocked org for a long time.\n",
            "[4355.40s -> 4356.04s]  When we started,\n",
            "[4358.76s -> 4360.76s]  we announced the org at the end of 2015\n",
            "[4362.04s -> 4363.80s]  and said we were going to work on AGI.\n",
            "[4363.80s -> 4365.56s]  People thought we were batshit insane.\n",
            "[4368.04s -> 4369.40s]  I remember at the time,\n",
            "[4369.48s -> 4375.08s]  an eminent AI scientist at a large industrial AI lab\n",
            "[4375.64s -> 4378.36s]  was DMing individual reporters,\n",
            "[4378.36s -> 4380.92s]  being like, these people aren't very good\n",
            "[4380.92s -> 4382.76s]  and it's ridiculous to talk about AGI.\n",
            "[4382.76s -> 4384.28s]  I can't believe you're giving them time of day.\n",
            "[4385.08s -> 4388.52s]  That was the level of pettiness and rancor in the field\n",
            "[4388.52s -> 4389.64s]  at a new group of people saying,\n",
            "[4389.64s -> 4390.84s]  we're going to try to build AGI.\n",
            "[4391.56s -> 4394.84s]  So OpenAI and DeepMind was a small collection of folks\n",
            "[4394.84s -> 4397.88s]  who were brave enough to talk about AGI.\n",
            "[4400.28s -> 4401.48s]  In the face of mockery.\n",
            "[4401.48s -> 4403.48s]  We don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[4403.48s -> 4405.72s]  We don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[4407.00s -> 4412.12s]  So speaking about the structure of the org,\n",
            "[4413.80s -> 4415.80s]  so OpenAI went,\n",
            "[4417.24s -> 4420.36s]  stopped being non-profit or split up in 2020.\n",
            "[4420.36s -> 4421.56s]  Can you describe that whole process?\n",
            "[4421.56s -> 4423.72s]  Yeah, so we started as a non-profit.\n",
            "[4424.28s -> 4427.16s]  We learned early on that we were going to need\n",
            "[4427.16s -> 4429.88s]  far more capital than we were able to raise as a non-profit.\n",
            "[4430.84s -> 4433.40s]  Our non-profit is still fully in charge.\n",
            "[4433.40s -> 4435.72s]  There is a subsidiary capped profit\n",
            "[4435.72s -> 4437.40s]  so that our investors and employees\n",
            "[4437.40s -> 4439.24s]  can earn a certain fixed return.\n",
            "[4440.28s -> 4441.48s]  And then beyond that,\n",
            "[4441.48s -> 4443.00s]  everything else flows to the non-profit.\n",
            "[4443.00s -> 4445.48s]  And the non-profit is like in voting control,\n",
            "[4445.48s -> 4448.12s]  lets us make a bunch of non-standard decisions,\n",
            "[4449.24s -> 4451.80s]  can cancel equity, can do a whole bunch of other things,\n",
            "[4451.80s -> 4453.80s]  can let us merge with another org,\n",
            "[4454.36s -> 4457.24s]  protects us from making decisions\n",
            "[4457.24s -> 4460.36s]  that are not in any shareholder's interest.\n",
            "[4461.96s -> 4463.56s]  So I think as a structure,\n",
            "[4463.56s -> 4466.92s]  this has been important to a lot of the decisions we've made.\n",
            "[4466.92s -> 4468.60s]  What went into that decision process\n",
            "[4469.24s -> 4473.48s]  for taking a leap from non-profit to capped for-profit?\n",
            "[4475.40s -> 4477.32s]  What are the pros and cons you were deciding at the time?\n",
            "[4477.32s -> 4478.92s]  I mean, this was 2019.\n",
            "[4478.92s -> 4483.08s]  It was really like to do what we needed to go do,\n",
            "[4483.16s -> 4485.00s]  we had tried and failed enough\n",
            "[4485.00s -> 4486.60s]  to raise the money as a non-profit.\n",
            "[4486.60s -> 4488.52s]  We didn't see a path forward there.\n",
            "[4488.52s -> 4491.64s]  So we needed some of the benefits of capitalism,\n",
            "[4491.64s -> 4492.92s]  but not too much.\n",
            "[4492.92s -> 4494.52s]  I remember at the time someone said,\n",
            "[4494.52s -> 4495.96s]  as a non-profit, not enough will happen.\n",
            "[4496.52s -> 4498.12s]  As a for-profit, too much will happen.\n",
            "[4498.68s -> 4500.44s]  So we need this sort of strange intermediate.\n",
            "[4502.12s -> 4505.32s]  What you kind of had this offhand comment of,\n",
            "[4506.52s -> 4509.40s]  you worry about the uncapped companies\n",
            "[4509.40s -> 4510.76s]  that play with AGI.\n",
            "[4511.72s -> 4513.64s]  Can you elaborate on the worry here?\n",
            "[4513.64s -> 4516.36s]  Because AGI, out of all the technologies\n",
            "[4516.36s -> 4518.12s]  we have in our hands,\n",
            "[4518.12s -> 4519.48s]  has the potential to make,\n",
            "[4520.44s -> 4523.56s]  the cap is 100x for open AI.\n",
            "[4523.56s -> 4526.12s]  It started, it's much, much lower for new investors now.\n",
            "[4527.64s -> 4529.80s]  AGI can make a lot more than 100x.\n",
            "[4529.80s -> 4530.30s]  For sure.\n",
            "[4531.00s -> 4531.80s]  So how do you,\n",
            "[4533.08s -> 4534.04s]  like how do you compete,\n",
            "[4534.04s -> 4536.28s]  like stepping outside of open AI,\n",
            "[4536.28s -> 4538.92s]  how do you look at a world where Google is playing,\n",
            "[4539.48s -> 4543.16s]  where Apple and Meta are playing?\n",
            "[4543.16s -> 4545.32s]  We can't control what other people are going to do.\n",
            "[4546.04s -> 4548.76s]  We can try to like build something and talk about it\n",
            "[4548.76s -> 4551.72s]  and influence others and provide value\n",
            "[4551.72s -> 4553.64s]  and good systems for the world.\n",
            "[4554.20s -> 4556.44s]  But they're going to do what they're going to do.\n",
            "[4557.16s -> 4560.68s]  Now, I think right now there's like\n",
            "[4563.88s -> 4566.84s]  extremely fast and not super deliberate motion\n",
            "[4566.84s -> 4568.28s]  inside of some of these companies.\n",
            "[4569.08s -> 4571.24s]  But already I think people are,\n",
            "[4571.24s -> 4573.64s]  as they see the rate of progress,\n",
            "[4574.92s -> 4578.04s]  already people are grappling with what's at stake here.\n",
            "[4578.04s -> 4579.64s]  And I think the better angels are going to win out.\n",
            "[4581.08s -> 4582.12s]  Can you elaborate on that,\n",
            "[4582.12s -> 4583.96s]  the better angels of individuals,\n",
            "[4583.96s -> 4585.80s]  the individuals within the companies?\n",
            "[4585.80s -> 4588.36s]  But, you know, the incentives of capitalism\n",
            "[4588.36s -> 4590.52s]  to create and capture unlimited value,\n",
            "[4592.12s -> 4593.08s]  I'm a little afraid of.\n",
            "[4594.04s -> 4596.60s]  But again, no, I think no one wants to destroy the world.\n",
            "[4596.60s -> 4597.72s]  No one likes saying like today,\n",
            "[4597.72s -> 4599.08s]  I want to destroy the world.\n",
            "[4599.08s -> 4601.48s]  So we've got the Malik problem.\n",
            "[4601.48s -> 4602.60s]  On the other hand, we've got people\n",
            "[4602.60s -> 4603.80s]  who are very aware of that.\n",
            "[4603.80s -> 4605.72s]  And I think a lot of healthy conversation\n",
            "[4605.72s -> 4608.60s]  about how can we collaborate to minimize\n",
            "[4610.12s -> 4611.72s]  some of these very scary downsides.\n",
            "[4613.44s -> 4616.28s]  Well, nobody wants to destroy the world.\n",
            "[4616.28s -> 4617.80s]  Let me ask you a tough question.\n",
            "[4617.80s -> 4624.28s]  So you are very likely to be one of,\n",
            "[4624.28s -> 4626.12s]  not the person that creates AGI.\n",
            "[4627.08s -> 4627.96s]  One of.\n",
            "[4627.96s -> 4628.84s]  One of.\n",
            "[4628.84s -> 4631.40s]  And even then, like we're on a team of many,\n",
            "[4631.40s -> 4633.96s]  there'll be many teams, several teams.\n",
            "[4633.96s -> 4636.36s]  Small number of people, nevertheless, relative.\n",
            "[4637.16s -> 4639.08s]  I do think it's strange that it's maybe a few tens\n",
            "[4639.08s -> 4640.36s]  of thousands of people in the world,\n",
            "[4640.92s -> 4642.28s]  a few thousands of people in the world.\n",
            "[4642.92s -> 4646.20s]  But there will be a room with a few folks\n",
            "[4646.20s -> 4648.12s]  who are like, holy shit.\n",
            "[4648.12s -> 4649.96s]  That happens more often than you would think now.\n",
            "[4649.96s -> 4651.56s]  I understand, I understand this.\n",
            "[4652.52s -> 4653.32s]  I understand this.\n",
            "[4653.32s -> 4655.00s]  But yes, there will be more such rooms.\n",
            "[4655.00s -> 4657.64s]  Which is a beautiful place to be in the world.\n",
            "[4658.28s -> 4659.96s]  Terrifying, but mostly beautiful.\n",
            "[4660.68s -> 4664.04s]  So that might make you and a handful of folks\n",
            "[4665.24s -> 4667.00s]  the most powerful humans on earth.\n",
            "[4667.72s -> 4669.72s]  Do you worry that power might corrupt you?\n",
            "[4670.68s -> 4671.18s]  For sure.\n",
            "[4671.96s -> 4672.84s]  Look, I don't.\n",
            "[4674.84s -> 4681.32s]  I think you want decisions about this technology\n",
            "[4681.32s -> 4686.28s]  and certainly decisions about who is running this technology\n",
            "[4686.28s -> 4688.92s]  to become increasingly democratic over time.\n",
            "[4689.56s -> 4691.32s]  We haven't figured out quite how to do this.\n",
            "[4692.76s -> 4695.96s]  But we, part of the reason for deploying like this\n",
            "[4695.96s -> 4700.36s]  is to get the world to have time to adapt and to reflect\n",
            "[4700.36s -> 4702.68s]  and to think about this, to pass regulation\n",
            "[4702.68s -> 4705.08s]  for institutions to come up with new norms\n",
            "[4705.08s -> 4706.52s]  for the people working on it together.\n",
            "[4706.52s -> 4709.08s]  Like that is a huge part of why we deploy,\n",
            "[4709.88s -> 4713.40s]  even though many of the AI safety people you referenced earlier think it's really bad.\n",
            "[4713.40s -> 4716.12s]  Even they acknowledge that this is like of some benefit.\n",
            "[4723.64s -> 4729.64s]  But I think any version of one person is in control of this is really bad.\n",
            "[4730.28s -> 4732.04s]  So trying to distribute the power.\n",
            "[4732.04s -> 4735.08s]  I don't have, and I don't want like any like super voting power\n",
            "[4735.08s -> 4737.80s]  or any special like that, you know, I'm not like control of the board\n",
            "[4737.80s -> 4739.16s]  or anything like that of OpenAI.\n",
            "[4743.08s -> 4745.80s]  But AGI, if created, has a lot of power.\n",
            "[4746.44s -> 4747.32s]  How do you think we're doing?\n",
            "[4747.32s -> 4749.00s]  Like, honest, how do you think we're doing so far?\n",
            "[4749.00s -> 4750.20s]  Like, how do you think our decisions are?\n",
            "[4750.20s -> 4752.28s]  Like, do you think we're making things not better or worse?\n",
            "[4752.28s -> 4753.08s]  What can we do better?\n",
            "[4753.72s -> 4754.92s]  Well, the things I really like,\n",
            "[4754.92s -> 4756.76s]  because I know a lot of folks at OpenAI,\n",
            "[4757.32s -> 4759.32s]  the thing I really like is the transparency,\n",
            "[4759.32s -> 4761.96s]  everything you're saying, which is like failing publicly,\n",
            "[4762.92s -> 4768.12s]  writing papers, releasing different kinds of information\n",
            "[4768.12s -> 4770.04s]  about the safety concerns involved,\n",
            "[4771.16s -> 4774.04s]  doing it out in the open is great.\n",
            "[4775.24s -> 4777.56s]  Because especially in contrast to some other companies\n",
            "[4777.56s -> 4780.44s]  that are not doing that, they're being more closed.\n",
            "[4781.24s -> 4783.80s]  That said, you could be more open.\n",
            "[4783.80s -> 4785.48s]  Do you think we should open source GPT-4?\n",
            "[4786.28s -> 4790.28s]  My personal opinion, because I know people at OpenAI, is no.\n",
            "[4790.92s -> 4792.92s]  What does knowing the people at OpenAI have to do with it?\n",
            "[4792.92s -> 4794.36s]  Because I know they're good people.\n",
            "[4794.36s -> 4795.32s]  I know a lot of people.\n",
            "[4795.32s -> 4796.84s]  I know they're good human beings.\n",
            "[4797.80s -> 4799.40s]  From a perspective of people that don't know\n",
            "[4799.40s -> 4801.00s]  the human beings, there's a concern\n",
            "[4801.00s -> 4803.96s]  of the super powerful technology in the hands of a few\n",
            "[4803.96s -> 4805.16s]  that's closed.\n",
            "[4805.16s -> 4808.04s]  It's closed in some sense, but we give more access to it.\n",
            "[4808.04s -> 4808.60s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4808.60s -> 4811.56s]  Like, if this had just been Google's idea,\n",
            "[4811.56s -> 4812.68s]  we would have been able to do it.\n",
            "[4813.00s -> 4815.72s]  Then, if this had just been Google's game,\n",
            "[4817.00s -> 4819.32s]  I feel it's very unlikely that anyone would have put\n",
            "[4819.32s -> 4820.12s]  this API out.\n",
            "[4820.12s -> 4821.24s]  There's PR risk with it.\n",
            "[4821.96s -> 4823.80s]  I get personal threats because of it all the time.\n",
            "[4823.80s -> 4825.56s]  I think most companies wouldn't have done this.\n",
            "[4826.12s -> 4828.52s]  So maybe we didn't go as open as people wanted,\n",
            "[4828.52s -> 4831.64s]  but we've distributed it pretty broadly.\n",
            "[4831.64s -> 4834.20s]  You personally, in OpenAI as a culture,\n",
            "[4834.20s -> 4838.44s]  is not so nervous about PR risk and all that kind of stuff.\n",
            "[4838.44s -> 4841.16s]  You're more nervous about the risk of the actual technology.\n",
            "[4841.56s -> 4843.32s]  And you reveal that.\n",
            "[4844.92s -> 4846.52s]  The nervousness that people have is,\n",
            "[4846.52s -> 4848.84s]  because it's such early days of the technology,\n",
            "[4848.84s -> 4850.44s]  is that you will close off over time.\n",
            "[4850.44s -> 4852.28s]  It's the thing that's more and more powerful.\n",
            "[4852.28s -> 4854.52s]  My nervousness is you get attacked so much\n",
            "[4854.52s -> 4857.80s]  by fear-mongering clickbait journalism,\n",
            "[4857.80s -> 4859.64s]  that you're like, why the hell do I need to deal with this?\n",
            "[4859.64s -> 4861.24s]  I think the clickbait journalism bothers you\n",
            "[4861.24s -> 4862.12s]  more than it bothers me.\n",
            "[4863.00s -> 4865.16s]  No, I'm third-person bothered.\n",
            "[4865.96s -> 4866.68s]  I appreciate that.\n",
            "[4867.32s -> 4868.20s]  I feel all right about it.\n",
            "[4868.20s -> 4869.40s]  Of all the things I lose sleep over,\n",
            "[4869.40s -> 4870.52s]  it's not high on the list.\n",
            "[4870.52s -> 4871.24s]  Because it's important.\n",
            "[4871.24s -> 4872.68s]  There's a handful of companies,\n",
            "[4872.68s -> 4874.68s]  a handful of folks that are really pushing this forward.\n",
            "[4874.68s -> 4875.48s]  They're amazing folks.\n",
            "[4875.48s -> 4877.00s]  And I don't want them to become cynical\n",
            "[4877.00s -> 4880.04s]  about the rest of the world.\n",
            "[4880.04s -> 4883.24s]  I think people at OpenAI feel the weight\n",
            "[4883.24s -> 4884.68s]  of responsibility of what we're doing.\n",
            "[4885.24s -> 4889.24s]  And yeah, it would be nice if journalists were nicer to us,\n",
            "[4889.24s -> 4891.64s]  and Twitter trolls give us more benefit of the doubt.\n",
            "[4892.20s -> 4895.16s]  But I think we have a lot of resolve\n",
            "[4895.16s -> 4898.44s]  in what we're doing and why, and the importance of it.\n",
            "[4899.24s -> 4901.88s]  But I really would love, and I ask this of a lot of people,\n",
            "[4901.88s -> 4903.00s]  not just of cameras rolling,\n",
            "[4903.00s -> 4905.24s]  any feedback you've got for how we can be doing better.\n",
            "[4905.24s -> 4906.92s]  We're in uncharted waters here.\n",
            "[4906.92s -> 4908.92s]  Talking to smart people is how we figure out\n",
            "[4908.92s -> 4909.72s]  what to do better.\n",
            "[4910.28s -> 4911.40s]  How do you take feedback?\n",
            "[4911.40s -> 4913.00s]  Do you take feedback from Twitter also?\n",
            "[4913.88s -> 4915.40s]  Because the sea, the waterfall.\n",
            "[4915.40s -> 4916.92s]  My Twitter is unreadable.\n",
            "[4916.92s -> 4917.42s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4917.88s -> 4919.08s]  So sometimes I do.\n",
            "[4919.08s -> 4921.48s]  I can take a sample, a cup out of the waterfall.\n",
            "[4922.92s -> 4925.32s]  But I mostly take it from conversations like this.\n",
            "[4926.12s -> 4927.16s]  Speaking of feedback,\n",
            "[4927.16s -> 4929.80s]  somebody you know well, you've worked together closely\n",
            "[4930.36s -> 4933.08s]  on some of the ideas behind OpenAI is Elon Musk.\n",
            "[4933.08s -> 4934.84s]  You have agreed on a lot of things.\n",
            "[4934.84s -> 4937.00s]  You've disagreed on some things.\n",
            "[4937.00s -> 4938.52s]  What have been some interesting things\n",
            "[4938.52s -> 4940.28s]  you've agreed and disagreed on?\n",
            "[4940.84s -> 4943.56s]  Speaking of a fun debate on Twitter.\n",
            "[4944.28s -> 4950.12s]  I think we agree on the magnitude of the downside of AGI\n",
            "[4950.12s -> 4954.28s]  and the need to get not only safety right,\n",
            "[4954.92s -> 4958.44s]  but get to a world where people are much better off\n",
            "[4960.20s -> 4963.24s]  because AGI exists than if AGI had never been built.\n",
            "[4964.28s -> 4964.78s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4966.36s -> 4967.40s]  What do you disagree on?\n",
            "[4968.76s -> 4972.12s]  Elon is obviously attacking us some on Twitter right now\n",
            "[4972.12s -> 4973.56s]  on a few different vectors.\n",
            "[4973.56s -> 4976.84s]  And I have empathy because I believe he is,\n",
            "[4978.76s -> 4982.28s]  understandably so, really stressed about AGI safety.\n",
            "[4982.36s -> 4984.92s]  I'm sure there are some other motivations going on too,\n",
            "[4984.92s -> 4986.76s]  but that's definitely one of them.\n",
            "[4990.44s -> 4995.88s]  I saw this video of Elon a long time ago,\n",
            "[4995.88s -> 4997.08s]  talking about SpaceX.\n",
            "[4997.08s -> 4998.92s]  Maybe it was on some news show.\n",
            "[4999.64s -> 5004.36s]  And a lot of early pioneers in space were really bashing\n",
            "[5007.24s -> 5008.92s]  SpaceX and maybe Elon too.\n",
            "[5009.00s -> 5012.20s]  He was visibly very hurt by that and said,\n",
            "[5013.80s -> 5016.76s]  you know, those guys are heroes of mine and it sucks.\n",
            "[5016.76s -> 5019.24s]  And I wish they would see how hard we're trying.\n",
            "[5020.28s -> 5022.52s]  I definitely grew up with Elon as a hero of mine.\n",
            "[5024.68s -> 5027.32s]  You know, despite him being a jerk on Twitter, whatever,\n",
            "[5027.32s -> 5028.68s]  I'm happy he exists in the world.\n",
            "[5029.40s -> 5036.28s]  But I wish he would do something about it.\n",
            "[5036.60s -> 5041.08s]  And do more to look at the hard work we're doing\n",
            "[5041.08s -> 5042.04s]  to get this stuff right.\n",
            "[5043.00s -> 5044.04s]  A little bit more love.\n",
            "[5045.24s -> 5048.04s]  What do you admire in the name of love, Abadi Elmusk?\n",
            "[5049.00s -> 5049.88s]  I mean, so much, right?\n",
            "[5049.88s -> 5056.12s]  Like he has driven the world forward in important ways.\n",
            "[5056.12s -> 5060.20s]  I think we will get to electric vehicles much faster\n",
            "[5060.20s -> 5061.72s]  than we would have if he didn't exist.\n",
            "[5061.72s -> 5063.32s]  I think we'll get to space much faster\n",
            "[5063.32s -> 5064.92s]  than we would have if he didn't exist.\n",
            "[5065.80s -> 5070.52s]  And as a sort of like citizen of the world,\n",
            "[5070.52s -> 5072.20s]  I'm very appreciative of that.\n",
            "[5072.76s -> 5075.80s]  Also, like being a jerk on Twitter aside,\n",
            "[5075.80s -> 5078.84s]  in many instances, he's like a very funny and warm guy.\n",
            "[5079.88s -> 5082.04s]  And some of the jerk on Twitter thing,\n",
            "[5083.48s -> 5086.76s]  as a fan of humanity laid out in its full complexity\n",
            "[5086.76s -> 5089.48s]  and beauty, I enjoy the tension of ideas expressed.\n",
            "[5090.12s -> 5093.08s]  So, you know, I earlier said that I admire\n",
            "[5093.16s -> 5096.68s]  how transparent you are, but I like how the battles\n",
            "[5096.68s -> 5098.76s]  are happening before our eyes, as opposed to everybody\n",
            "[5098.76s -> 5101.32s]  closing off inside boardrooms, it's all laid out.\n",
            "[5101.32s -> 5102.92s]  Yeah, you know, maybe I should hit back\n",
            "[5102.92s -> 5105.96s]  and maybe someday I will, but it's not like my normal style.\n",
            "[5106.92s -> 5108.44s]  It's all fascinating to watch.\n",
            "[5108.44s -> 5112.44s]  And I think both of you are brilliant people\n",
            "[5112.44s -> 5116.20s]  and have early on for a long time, really cared about AGI\n",
            "[5116.20s -> 5119.88s]  and had great concerns about AGI, but a great hope for AGI.\n",
            "[5119.88s -> 5123.00s]  And that's cool to see these big minds\n",
            "[5123.00s -> 5126.60s]  having those discussions, even if they're tense at times.\n",
            "[5127.56s -> 5131.16s]  I think it was Elon that said that GPT is too woke.\n",
            "[5133.24s -> 5134.44s]  Is GPT too woke?\n",
            "[5135.56s -> 5137.48s]  Can you still make the case that it is and not?\n",
            "[5137.48s -> 5140.84s]  This is going to our question about bias.\n",
            "[5140.84s -> 5143.24s]  Honestly, I barely know what woke means anymore.\n",
            "[5143.24s -> 5145.32s]  I did for a while and I feel like the word has morphed.\n",
            "[5145.32s -> 5147.80s]  So I will say, I think it was too biased.\n",
            "[5148.60s -> 5153.88s]  And there will be no one version of GPT\n",
            "[5153.88s -> 5156.04s]  that the world ever agrees is unbiased.\n",
            "[5157.64s -> 5160.84s]  What I think is we've made a lot, like, again,\n",
            "[5160.84s -> 5164.20s]  even some of our harshest critics have gone off\n",
            "[5164.20s -> 5166.76s]  and been tweeting about 3.5 to 4 comparisons\n",
            "[5166.76s -> 5169.40s]  and being like, wow, these people really got a lot better.\n",
            "[5169.40s -> 5170.52s]  Not that they don't have more work to do\n",
            "[5170.52s -> 5174.76s]  and we certainly do, but I appreciate critics\n",
            "[5174.76s -> 5176.92s]  who display intellectual honesty like that.\n",
            "[5177.56s -> 5179.48s]  And there's been more of that than I would have thought.\n",
            "[5181.24s -> 5184.28s]  We will try to get the default version\n",
            "[5184.28s -> 5187.64s]  to be as neutral as possible,\n",
            "[5187.64s -> 5189.72s]  but as neutral as possible is not that neutral\n",
            "[5189.72s -> 5191.72s]  if you have to do it, again, for more than one person.\n",
            "[5192.36s -> 5195.48s]  And so this is where more steerability,\n",
            "[5195.48s -> 5196.92s]  more control in the hands of the user,\n",
            "[5196.92s -> 5198.36s]  the system message in particular,\n",
            "[5199.64s -> 5201.08s]  is I think the real path forward.\n",
            "[5201.88s -> 5203.72s]  And as you pointed out, these nuanced answers\n",
            "[5203.72s -> 5205.32s]  that look at something from several angles.\n",
            "[5205.88s -> 5207.88s]  Yeah, it's really, really fascinating.\n",
            "[5207.88s -> 5209.24s]  It's really fascinating.\n",
            "[5209.24s -> 5211.40s]  Is there something to be said about the employees\n",
            "[5211.40s -> 5214.52s]  of a company affecting the bias of the system?\n",
            "[5214.52s -> 5215.02s]  100%.\n",
            "[5216.44s -> 5224.28s]  We try to avoid the SF groupthink bubble.\n",
            "[5224.92s -> 5226.84s]  It's harder to avoid the AI groupthink bubble.\n",
            "[5226.84s -> 5228.20s]  That follows you everywhere.\n",
            "[5228.20s -> 5229.88s]  There's all kinds of bubbles we live in.\n",
            "[5229.88s -> 5230.60s]  100%.\n",
            "[5230.60s -> 5231.16s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5231.16s -> 5234.84s]  I'm going on like a around the world user tour\n",
            "[5235.40s -> 5237.96s]  soon for a month to just go talk to our users\n",
            "[5237.96s -> 5238.76s]  in different cities.\n",
            "[5239.56s -> 5242.76s]  And I can feel how much I'm craving doing that\n",
            "[5242.76s -> 5247.48s]  because I haven't done anything like that since in years.\n",
            "[5247.48s -> 5248.84s]  I used to do that more for YC.\n",
            "[5249.56s -> 5253.96s]  And to go talk to people in super different contexts,\n",
            "[5255.24s -> 5256.68s]  and it doesn't work over the internet.\n",
            "[5256.68s -> 5258.60s]  To go show up in person and sit down\n",
            "[5258.60s -> 5261.00s]  and go to the bars they go to\n",
            "[5261.00s -> 5263.48s]  and walk through the city like they do,\n",
            "[5263.48s -> 5267.48s]  you learn so much and get out of the bubble so much.\n",
            "[5269.48s -> 5272.52s]  I think we are much better than any other company\n",
            "[5272.52s -> 5274.52s]  I know of in San Francisco for not falling\n",
            "[5274.52s -> 5277.24s]  into the kind of like SF craziness,\n",
            "[5277.24s -> 5279.96s]  but I'm sure we're still pretty deeply in it.\n",
            "[5279.96s -> 5282.68s]  But is it possible to separate the bias of the model\n",
            "[5282.68s -> 5284.52s]  versus the bias of the employees?\n",
            "[5285.48s -> 5287.16s]  The bias I'm most nervous about\n",
            "[5287.16s -> 5290.36s]  is the bias of the human feedback raters.\n",
            "[5291.48s -> 5293.32s]  So what's the selection of the human?\n",
            "[5293.32s -> 5295.80s]  Is there something you could speak to at a high level\n",
            "[5295.80s -> 5297.56s]  about the selection of the human raters?\n",
            "[5297.56s -> 5299.88s]  This is the part that we understand the least well.\n",
            "[5299.88s -> 5301.40s]  We're great at the pre-training machinery.\n",
            "[5302.12s -> 5303.32s]  We're now trying to figure out\n",
            "[5303.32s -> 5304.68s]  how we're gonna select those people.\n",
            "[5305.24s -> 5310.04s]  How we'll verify that we get a representative sample.\n",
            "[5310.04s -> 5311.56s]  How we'll do different ones for different places.\n",
            "[5311.56s -> 5313.80s]  But we don't have that functionality built out yet.\n",
            "[5313.80s -> 5319.00s]  It's such a fascinating science.\n",
            "[5319.00s -> 5321.80s]  You clearly don't want all American elite university\n",
            "[5321.80s -> 5324.36s]  students giving you your labels.\n",
            "[5324.36s -> 5326.20s]  Well, see, it's not about-\n",
            "[5326.20s -> 5327.80s]  I'm sorry, I just can never resist that dig.\n",
            "[5327.80s -> 5328.76s]  Yes, nice.\n",
            "[5331.00s -> 5333.00s]  But it's, so that's a good,\n",
            "[5334.36s -> 5335.96s]  there's a million heuristics you can use.\n",
            "[5336.84s -> 5338.28s]  To me, that's a shallow heuristic\n",
            "[5338.28s -> 5342.76s]  because like any one kind of category of human\n",
            "[5342.76s -> 5344.44s]  that you would think would have certain beliefs\n",
            "[5345.16s -> 5347.40s]  might actually be really open-minded in an interesting way.\n",
            "[5347.40s -> 5349.56s]  So you have to like optimize\n",
            "[5349.64s -> 5351.96s]  for how good you are actually answering,\n",
            "[5351.96s -> 5353.80s]  at doing these kinds of rating tasks.\n",
            "[5354.44s -> 5355.80s]  How good you are at empathizing\n",
            "[5355.80s -> 5357.56s]  with an experience of other humans.\n",
            "[5357.56s -> 5358.20s]  That's a big one.\n",
            "[5359.08s -> 5361.32s]  And be able to actually like,\n",
            "[5361.32s -> 5363.00s]  what does the worldview look like\n",
            "[5363.56s -> 5364.84s]  for all kinds of groups of people\n",
            "[5364.84s -> 5366.12s]  that would answer this differently?\n",
            "[5366.12s -> 5368.20s]  I mean, I have to do that constantly.\n",
            "[5368.20s -> 5368.76s]  And so they're like-\n",
            "[5368.76s -> 5369.80s]  You've asked this a few times,\n",
            "[5369.80s -> 5371.32s]  but it's something I often do.\n",
            "[5371.32s -> 5373.88s]  I ask people in an interview or whatever\n",
            "[5373.88s -> 5376.76s]  to steel man the beliefs of someone\n",
            "[5376.76s -> 5378.04s]  they really disagree with.\n",
            "[5378.04s -> 5379.56s]  And the inability of a lot of people\n",
            "[5379.56s -> 5381.48s]  to even pretend like they're willing to do that\n",
            "[5381.48s -> 5382.20s]  is remarkable.\n",
            "[5382.20s -> 5383.88s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5383.88s -> 5386.84s]  What I find, unfortunately, ever since COVID,\n",
            "[5386.84s -> 5387.96s]  even more so,\n",
            "[5387.96s -> 5389.88s]  that there's almost an emotional barrier.\n",
            "[5390.52s -> 5392.04s]  It's not even an intellectual barrier.\n",
            "[5392.04s -> 5393.56s]  Before they even get to the intellectual,\n",
            "[5393.56s -> 5395.80s]  there's an emotional barrier that says, no.\n",
            "[5395.80s -> 5398.84s]  Anyone who might possibly believe X,\n",
            "[5401.32s -> 5403.72s]  they're an idiot, they're evil,\n",
            "[5403.72s -> 5405.56s]  they're malevolent.\n",
            "[5405.56s -> 5406.84s]  Anything you want to assign,\n",
            "[5407.48s -> 5409.80s]  they're not even loading in the data into their head.\n",
            "[5409.80s -> 5412.84s]  Look, I think we'll find out that we can make GPT systems\n",
            "[5412.84s -> 5414.76s]  way less biased than any human.\n",
            "[5414.76s -> 5415.26s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5415.96s -> 5417.32s]  So hopefully without the...\n",
            "[5418.52s -> 5420.36s]  Because there won't be that emotional load there.\n",
            "[5420.36s -> 5421.56s]  Yeah, the emotional load.\n",
            "[5422.68s -> 5423.88s]  But there might be pressure.\n",
            "[5423.88s -> 5425.48s]  There might be political pressure.\n",
            "[5425.48s -> 5428.12s]  Oh, there might be pressure to make a biased system.\n",
            "[5428.12s -> 5429.48s]  What I meant is the technology,\n",
            "[5429.48s -> 5432.84s]  I think, will be capable of being much less biased.\n",
            "[5432.84s -> 5435.96s]  Do you anticipate, do you worry about pressures\n",
            "[5436.04s -> 5439.48s]  from outside sources, from society, from politicians,\n",
            "[5439.48s -> 5441.56s]  from money sources?\n",
            "[5441.56s -> 5443.32s]  I both worry about it and want it.\n",
            "[5445.00s -> 5446.36s]  To the point of we're in this bubble\n",
            "[5446.36s -> 5447.80s]  and we shouldn't make all these decisions.\n",
            "[5447.80s -> 5451.16s]  We want society to have a huge degree of input here.\n",
            "[5451.16s -> 5453.32s]  That is pressure in some point, in some way.\n",
            "[5453.32s -> 5456.20s]  Well, that's what, to some degree,\n",
            "[5457.56s -> 5459.24s]  Twitter files have revealed\n",
            "[5460.12s -> 5463.00s]  that there was pressure from different organizations.\n",
            "[5463.00s -> 5464.12s]  You can see in the pandemic\n",
            "[5464.76s -> 5468.04s]  where the CDC or some other government organization\n",
            "[5468.04s -> 5469.96s]  might put pressure on, you know what,\n",
            "[5471.00s -> 5472.92s]  we're not really sure what's true,\n",
            "[5472.92s -> 5475.24s]  but it's very unsafe to have these kinds\n",
            "[5475.24s -> 5477.24s]  of nuanced conversations now.\n",
            "[5477.24s -> 5478.76s]  So let's censor all topics.\n",
            "[5478.76s -> 5480.92s]  So you get a lot of those emails,\n",
            "[5480.92s -> 5483.24s]  like, you know, emails,\n",
            "[5483.24s -> 5485.32s]  all different kinds of people reaching out\n",
            "[5485.32s -> 5488.44s]  at different places to put subtle indirect pressure,\n",
            "[5489.08s -> 5491.24s]  direct pressure, financial, political pressure,\n",
            "[5491.24s -> 5492.12s]  all that kind of stuff.\n",
            "[5492.12s -> 5493.32s]  How do you survive that?\n",
            "[5494.36s -> 5497.00s]  How do you, how much do you worry about that\n",
            "[5498.12s -> 5502.52s]  if GPT continues to get more and more intelligent\n",
            "[5502.52s -> 5504.52s]  and a source of information and knowledge\n",
            "[5505.16s -> 5506.60s]  for human civilization?\n",
            "[5507.88s -> 5509.48s]  I think there's like a lot of quirks about me\n",
            "[5509.48s -> 5513.00s]  that make me not a great CEO for OpenAI,\n",
            "[5513.00s -> 5516.60s]  but a thing in the positive column is I think I am\n",
            "[5516.76s -> 5522.76s]  relatively good at not being affected by pressure\n",
            "[5522.76s -> 5523.80s]  for the sake of pressure.\n",
            "[5526.36s -> 5528.52s]  By the way, beautiful statement of humility,\n",
            "[5528.52s -> 5530.84s]  but I have to ask, what's in the negative column?\n",
            "[5530.84s -> 5532.68s]  Oh, I mean.\n",
            "[5532.68s -> 5534.92s]  Too long a list?\n",
            "[5534.92s -> 5536.44s]  No, no, I'm trying, what's a good one?\n",
            "[5538.20s -> 5539.80s]  I mean, I think I'm not a great like spokesperson\n",
            "[5539.80s -> 5541.64s]  for the AI movement, I'll say that.\n",
            "[5541.64s -> 5543.24s]  I think there could be like a more,\n",
            "[5543.32s -> 5544.52s]  there could be someone who enjoyed it more,\n",
            "[5544.52s -> 5546.44s]  there could be someone who's like much more charismatic,\n",
            "[5546.44s -> 5548.84s]  there could be someone who like connects better,\n",
            "[5548.84s -> 5550.68s]  I think, with people than I do.\n",
            "[5550.68s -> 5551.72s]  I'm with Chomsky on this,\n",
            "[5551.72s -> 5553.40s]  I think charisma is a dangerous thing.\n",
            "[5554.36s -> 5559.32s]  I think flaws in communication style,\n",
            "[5559.32s -> 5562.04s]  I think is a feature, not a bug in general,\n",
            "[5562.04s -> 5564.52s]  at least for humans, at least for humans in power.\n",
            "[5565.40s -> 5567.88s]  I think I have like more serious problems than that one.\n",
            "[5568.76s -> 5570.68s]  I think I'm not a great CEO for OpenAI,\n",
            "[5570.68s -> 5572.36s]  I have more serious problems than that one.\n",
            "[5578.44s -> 5583.96s]  I think I'm like pretty disconnected\n",
            "[5583.96s -> 5586.52s]  from like the reality of life for most people,\n",
            "[5587.80s -> 5591.16s]  and trying to really not just like empathize with,\n",
            "[5591.16s -> 5595.40s]  but internalize what the impact on people\n",
            "[5595.40s -> 5597.48s]  that AGI is going to have.\n",
            "[5598.36s -> 5602.04s]  I probably like feel that less than other people would.\n",
            "[5602.04s -> 5604.76s]  That's really well put,\n",
            "[5604.76s -> 5606.52s]  and you said like you're gonna travel across the world\n",
            "[5606.52s -> 5608.76s]  to empathize with different users.\n",
            "[5608.76s -> 5609.88s]  Not to empathize, just to like,\n",
            "[5610.76s -> 5613.08s]  I wanna just like buy our users,\n",
            "[5613.08s -> 5614.76s]  our developers, our users a drink,\n",
            "[5614.76s -> 5617.64s]  and say like, tell us what you'd like to change.\n",
            "[5617.64s -> 5620.12s]  And I think one of the things we are not good,\n",
            "[5620.12s -> 5622.20s]  as good at as a company as I would like,\n",
            "[5622.20s -> 5624.44s]  is to be a really user-centric company.\n",
            "[5625.24s -> 5628.04s]  And I feel like by the time it gets filtered to me,\n",
            "[5628.04s -> 5629.72s]  it's like totally meaningless.\n",
            "[5629.72s -> 5631.72s]  So I really just wanna go talk to a lot of our users\n",
            "[5631.72s -> 5632.92s]  in very different contexts.\n",
            "[5632.92s -> 5635.08s]  But like you said, a drink in person,\n",
            "[5635.08s -> 5638.60s]  because I haven't actually found the right words for it,\n",
            "[5638.60s -> 5645.80s]  but I was a little afraid with the programming, emotionally.\n",
            "[5645.80s -> 5647.56s]  I don't think it makes any sense.\n",
            "[5647.56s -> 5649.40s]  There is a real limbic response there.\n",
            "[5649.40s -> 5651.56s]  GPT makes me nervous about the future,\n",
            "[5651.56s -> 5653.08s]  not in an AI safety way,\n",
            "[5653.08s -> 5655.56s]  but like change, change.\n",
            "[5656.36s -> 5658.12s]  And like, there's a nervousness about change.\n",
            "[5658.12s -> 5659.48s]  And more nervous than excited.\n",
            "[5660.60s -> 5663.72s]  If I take away the fact that I'm an AI person\n",
            "[5663.72s -> 5666.12s]  and just a programmer, more excited,\n",
            "[5666.12s -> 5666.92s]  but still nervous.\n",
            "[5667.80s -> 5670.12s]  Yeah, nervous in brief moments,\n",
            "[5670.12s -> 5671.56s]  especially when sleep deprived,\n",
            "[5671.56s -> 5673.08s]  but there's a nervousness there.\n",
            "[5673.08s -> 5674.52s]  People who say they're not nervous,\n",
            "[5675.64s -> 5676.76s]  it's hard for me to believe.\n",
            "[5678.20s -> 5679.24s]  But you're right, it's excited.\n",
            "[5679.24s -> 5680.68s]  It's nervous for change.\n",
            "[5680.68s -> 5683.88s]  Nervous whenever there's significant, exciting kind of change.\n",
            "[5685.64s -> 5687.56s]  You know, I've recently started using,\n",
            "[5687.56s -> 5689.64s]  I've been an Emacs person for a very long time.\n",
            "[5689.64s -> 5692.28s]  And I switched to VS Code as a-\n",
            "[5692.28s -> 5693.08s]  For Copilot?\n",
            "[5694.60s -> 5698.28s]  That was one of the big reasons.\n",
            "[5698.28s -> 5700.68s]  Because like, this is where a lot of active development,\n",
            "[5700.68s -> 5705.56s]  of course, you can probably do Copilot inside Emacs.\n",
            "[5705.56s -> 5706.20s]  I mean, I'm sure-\n",
            "[5706.20s -> 5707.40s]  VS Code is also pretty good.\n",
            "[5708.04s -> 5711.96s]  Yeah, there's a lot of like little things and big things\n",
            "[5711.96s -> 5713.48s]  that are just really good about VS Code.\n",
            "[5714.04s -> 5717.40s]  And I can happily report in all the event people\n",
            "[5717.40s -> 5719.56s]  would just go nuts, but I'm very happy.\n",
            "[5719.56s -> 5721.00s]  It was a very happy decision.\n",
            "[5721.00s -> 5722.68s]  But there was a lot of uncertainty.\n",
            "[5723.40s -> 5725.32s]  There's a lot of nervousness about it.\n",
            "[5725.32s -> 5729.64s]  There's fear and so on about taking that leap.\n",
            "[5729.64s -> 5731.08s]  And that's obviously a tiny leap.\n",
            "[5731.88s -> 5734.12s]  But even just the leap to actively using Copilot,\n",
            "[5734.12s -> 5736.52s]  like using a generation of code,\n",
            "[5737.88s -> 5738.52s]  makes you nervous.\n",
            "[5738.52s -> 5742.04s]  But ultimately, my life is much better as a programmer.\n",
            "[5742.04s -> 5742.92s]  Purely as a programmer,\n",
            "[5742.92s -> 5745.96s]  I'm a programmer of little things and big things,\n",
            "[5745.96s -> 5746.84s]  is much better.\n",
            "[5746.84s -> 5747.64s]  But there's a nervousness.\n",
            "[5747.64s -> 5749.40s]  And I think a lot of people will experience that,\n",
            "[5750.60s -> 5752.36s]  experience that, and you will experience that\n",
            "[5752.36s -> 5753.72s]  by talking to them.\n",
            "[5753.72s -> 5755.56s]  And I don't know what we do with that,\n",
            "[5757.40s -> 5761.00s]  how we comfort people in the face of this uncertainty.\n",
            "[5761.00s -> 5763.56s]  And you're getting more nervous the more you use it, not less?\n",
            "[5765.16s -> 5765.72s]  Yes.\n",
            "[5765.72s -> 5766.76s]  I would have to say yes,\n",
            "[5766.76s -> 5768.20s]  because I get better at using it.\n",
            "[5768.20s -> 5769.24s]  So actually-\n",
            "[5769.24s -> 5770.60s]  Yeah, the learning curve is quite steep.\n",
            "[5770.60s -> 5771.10s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5772.20s -> 5773.88s]  And then there's moments when you're like,\n",
            "[5773.88s -> 5776.52s]  oh, it generates a function beautifully.\n",
            "[5778.36s -> 5780.68s]  You sit back, both proud like a parent,\n",
            "[5781.40s -> 5783.56s]  but almost like proud and scared\n",
            "[5784.20s -> 5786.60s]  that this thing will be much smarter than me.\n",
            "[5787.80s -> 5791.56s]  Both pride and sadness, almost like a melancholy feeling.\n",
            "[5791.56s -> 5793.56s]  But ultimately joy, I think, yeah.\n",
            "[5793.56s -> 5796.60s]  What kind of jobs do you think GPT language models\n",
            "[5796.60s -> 5799.24s]  would be better than humans at?\n",
            "[5799.24s -> 5801.96s]  Like full, like does the whole thing end to end better?\n",
            "[5802.60s -> 5803.64s]  Not like what it's doing with you,\n",
            "[5803.64s -> 5806.12s]  where it's helping you be maybe 10 times more productive.\n",
            "[5807.32s -> 5809.08s]  Those are both good questions.\n",
            "[5809.08s -> 5811.88s]  I don't, I would say they're equivalent to me,\n",
            "[5811.88s -> 5813.48s]  because if I'm 10 times more productive,\n",
            "[5813.48s -> 5815.72s]  wouldn't that mean that there'll be a need\n",
            "[5815.72s -> 5818.36s]  for much fewer programmers in the world?\n",
            "[5818.36s -> 5819.72s]  I think the world is going to find out\n",
            "[5819.72s -> 5822.12s]  that if you can have 10 times as much code at the same price,\n",
            "[5822.12s -> 5823.24s]  you can just use even more.\n",
            "[5823.80s -> 5824.76s]  You should write even more code.\n",
            "[5824.76s -> 5826.20s]  The world just needs way more code.\n",
            "[5826.76s -> 5829.00s]  It is true that a lot more could be digitized.\n",
            "[5830.28s -> 5832.44s]  There could be a lot more code in a lot more stuff.\n",
            "[5833.16s -> 5834.60s]  I think there's like a supply issue.\n",
            "[5835.40s -> 5836.12s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5836.12s -> 5839.24s]  So in terms of really replaced jobs,\n",
            "[5839.24s -> 5840.12s]  is that a worry for you?\n",
            "[5841.64s -> 5842.04s]  It is.\n",
            "[5842.84s -> 5844.36s]  I'm trying to think of like a big category\n",
            "[5844.36s -> 5847.32s]  that I believe can be massively impacted.\n",
            "[5847.32s -> 5850.28s]  I guess I would say customer service\n",
            "[5850.28s -> 5851.80s]  is a category that I could see.\n",
            "[5852.60s -> 5855.16s]  There are just way fewer jobs relatively soon.\n",
            "[5856.52s -> 5859.72s]  I'm not even certain about that, but I could believe it.\n",
            "[5860.60s -> 5865.96s]  So like basic questions about when do I take this pill,\n",
            "[5865.96s -> 5868.28s]  if it's a drug company or when,\n",
            "[5868.28s -> 5870.44s]  I don't know why I went to that,\n",
            "[5870.44s -> 5872.20s]  but like how do I use this product?\n",
            "[5872.20s -> 5873.88s]  Like questions, like how do I use this?\n",
            "[5873.88s -> 5876.36s]  Whatever call center employees are doing now.\n",
            "[5876.36s -> 5876.84s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5876.84s -> 5877.56s]  This is not work.\n",
            "[5877.56s -> 5878.12s]  Yeah. Okay.\n",
            "[5879.96s -> 5880.68s]  I want to be clear.\n",
            "[5880.68s -> 5885.96s]  I think like these systems will make a lot of jobs just go away.\n",
            "[5885.96s -> 5887.48s]  Every technological revolution does.\n",
            "[5888.20s -> 5891.56s]  They will enhance many jobs and make them much better,\n",
            "[5891.56s -> 5893.08s]  much more fun, much higher paid.\n",
            "[5893.88s -> 5898.36s]  And they'll create new jobs that are difficult for us to imagine,\n",
            "[5898.36s -> 5900.28s]  even if we're starting to see the first glimpses of them.\n",
            "[5900.92s -> 5905.56s]  But I heard someone last week talking about GPT-4,\n",
            "[5906.20s -> 5912.44s]  saying that, man, the dignity of work is just such a huge deal.\n",
            "[5912.44s -> 5913.80s]  We've really got to worry.\n",
            "[5913.80s -> 5916.12s]  Like even people who think they don't like their jobs,\n",
            "[5916.12s -> 5917.32s]  they really need them.\n",
            "[5917.32s -> 5919.48s]  It's really important to them and to society.\n",
            "[5920.52s -> 5922.60s]  And also, can you believe how awful it is\n",
            "[5922.60s -> 5924.60s]  that France is trying to raise the retirement age?\n",
            "[5926.52s -> 5929.48s]  And I think we as a society are confused\n",
            "[5929.48s -> 5931.56s]  about whether we want to work more or work less.\n",
            "[5932.60s -> 5935.16s]  And certainly about whether most people like their jobs\n",
            "[5935.16s -> 5937.08s]  and get value out of their jobs or not.\n",
            "[5937.08s -> 5937.64s]  Some people do.\n",
            "[5937.64s -> 5938.36s]  I love my job.\n",
            "[5938.36s -> 5939.32s]  I suspect you do too.\n",
            "[5940.68s -> 5941.48s]  That's a real privilege.\n",
            "[5941.48s -> 5943.08s]  Not everybody gets to say that.\n",
            "[5943.08s -> 5945.40s]  If we can move more of the world to better jobs\n",
            "[5945.96s -> 5950.68s]  and work to something that can be a broader concept,\n",
            "[5950.68s -> 5953.00s]  not something you have to do to be able to eat,\n",
            "[5953.00s -> 5955.24s]  but something you do as a creative expression\n",
            "[5955.24s -> 5957.56s]  and a way to find fulfillment and happiness, whatever else,\n",
            "[5958.12s -> 5961.08s]  even if those jobs look extremely different from the jobs of today,\n",
            "[5961.72s -> 5962.60s]  I think that's great.\n",
            "[5962.60s -> 5964.60s]  I'm not nervous about it at all.\n",
            "[5965.56s -> 5968.92s]  You have been a proponent of UBI, universal basic income.\n",
            "[5968.92s -> 5971.80s]  In the context of AI, can you describe your philosophy there\n",
            "[5973.00s -> 5975.00s]  of our human future with UBI?\n",
            "[5976.12s -> 5976.84s]  Why you like it?\n",
            "[5976.84s -> 5978.12s]  What are some limitations?\n",
            "[5978.68s -> 5982.68s]  I think it is a component of something we should pursue.\n",
            "[5982.68s -> 5984.60s]  It is not a full solution.\n",
            "[5984.60s -> 5987.16s]  I think people work for lots of reasons besides money.\n",
            "[5991.16s -> 5994.52s]  And I think we are gonna find incredible new jobs\n",
            "[5994.52s -> 5998.20s]  and society as a whole and people's individuals\n",
            "[5998.20s -> 5999.56s]  are gonna get much, much richer,\n",
            "[6000.12s -> 6004.04s]  but as a cushion through a dramatic transition\n",
            "[6004.04s -> 6005.08s]  and as just like,\n",
            "[6007.00s -> 6010.04s]  I think the world should eliminate poverty if able to do so.\n",
            "[6010.60s -> 6012.28s]  I think it's a great thing to do\n",
            "[6013.72s -> 6016.44s]  as a small part of the bucket of solutions.\n",
            "[6016.44s -> 6019.00s]  I helped start a project called WorldCoin,\n",
            "[6021.40s -> 6023.88s]  which is a technological solution to this.\n",
            "[6023.88s -> 6027.56s]  We also have funded a large,\n",
            "[6027.56s -> 6030.20s]  I think maybe the largest and most comprehensive\n",
            "[6030.20s -> 6031.72s]  universal basic income study\n",
            "[6032.52s -> 6034.68s]  as part of sponsored by OpenAI.\n",
            "[6035.96s -> 6039.24s]  And I think it's like an area we should just be looking into.\n",
            "[6040.60s -> 6043.80s]  What are some like insights from that study that you gained?\n",
            "[6043.80s -> 6045.88s]  We're gonna finish up at the end of this year\n",
            "[6045.88s -> 6048.52s]  and we'll be able to talk about it hopefully very early next.\n",
            "[6049.08s -> 6050.36s]  If we can linger on it,\n",
            "[6050.36s -> 6052.68s]  how do you think the economic and political systems\n",
            "[6052.68s -> 6057.24s]  will change as AI becomes a prevalent part of society?\n",
            "[6057.24s -> 6060.36s]  It's such an interesting sort of philosophical question\n",
            "[6061.88s -> 6063.96s]  looking 10, 20, 50 years from now.\n",
            "[6065.00s -> 6066.60s]  What does the economy look like?\n",
            "[6067.80s -> 6069.24s]  What does politics look like?\n",
            "[6069.80s -> 6071.96s]  Do you see significant transformations\n",
            "[6071.96s -> 6074.60s]  in terms of the way democracy functions even?\n",
            "[6075.24s -> 6076.44s]  I love that you asked them together\n",
            "[6076.44s -> 6077.72s]  because I think they're super related.\n",
            "[6077.72s -> 6079.56s]  I think the economic transformation\n",
            "[6079.56s -> 6082.20s]  will drive much of the political transformation here.\n",
            "[6082.68s -> 6083.48s]  Not the other way around.\n",
            "[6085.48s -> 6091.00s]  My working model for the last five years\n",
            "[6091.00s -> 6094.60s]  has been that the two dominant changes\n",
            "[6094.60s -> 6097.00s]  will be that the cost of intelligence\n",
            "[6097.00s -> 6098.12s]  and the cost of energy\n",
            "[6098.68s -> 6100.84s]  are going over the next couple of decades\n",
            "[6100.84s -> 6102.60s]  to dramatically, dramatically fall\n",
            "[6102.60s -> 6103.56s]  from where they are today.\n",
            "[6104.36s -> 6106.12s]  And the impact of that,\n",
            "[6106.12s -> 6106.92s]  and you're already seeing it\n",
            "[6106.92s -> 6110.76s]  with the way you now have like programming ability\n",
            "[6110.76s -> 6112.52s]  beyond what you had as an individual,\n",
            "[6113.48s -> 6117.32s]  is society gets much, much richer,\n",
            "[6117.32s -> 6120.28s]  much wealthier in ways that are probably hard to imagine.\n",
            "[6121.08s -> 6123.48s]  I think every time that's happened before,\n",
            "[6123.48s -> 6126.04s]  it has been that economic impact\n",
            "[6126.04s -> 6129.00s]  has had positive political impact as well.\n",
            "[6129.00s -> 6130.76s]  And I think it does go the other way too.\n",
            "[6130.76s -> 6134.28s]  Like the sociopolitical values of the Enlightenment\n",
            "[6134.28s -> 6139.08s]  enabled the long running technological revolution\n",
            "[6139.08s -> 6141.40s]  and scientific discovery process we've had\n",
            "[6141.48s -> 6143.56s]  for the past centuries.\n",
            "[6145.96s -> 6147.48s]  But I think we're just gonna see more.\n",
            "[6148.36s -> 6149.56s]  I'm sure the shape will change.\n",
            "[6151.96s -> 6153.00s]  But I think it's this long\n",
            "[6153.56s -> 6154.92s]  and beautiful exponential curve.\n",
            "[6154.92s -> 6158.36s]  Do you think there will be more,\n",
            "[6161.08s -> 6163.00s]  I don't know what the term is,\n",
            "[6163.00s -> 6165.16s]  but systems that resemble something\n",
            "[6165.16s -> 6166.68s]  like democratic socialism?\n",
            "[6166.68s -> 6168.44s]  I've talked to a few folks on this podcast\n",
            "[6168.44s -> 6170.12s]  about these kinds of topics.\n",
            "[6170.12s -> 6171.40s]  Instinct, yes, I hope so.\n",
            "[6172.92s -> 6176.84s]  So that it reallocates some resources\n",
            "[6176.84s -> 6178.84s]  in a way that supports kind of lifts\n",
            "[6180.52s -> 6181.64s]  the people who are struggling.\n",
            "[6181.64s -> 6183.56s]  I am a big believer in lift up the floor\n",
            "[6183.56s -> 6185.08s]  and don't worry about the ceiling.\n",
            "[6186.68s -> 6190.28s]  If I can test your historical knowledge.\n",
            "[6190.28s -> 6191.80s]  It's probably not gonna be good, but let's try it.\n",
            "[6192.84s -> 6195.32s]  Why do you think, I come from the Soviet Union,\n",
            "[6195.32s -> 6198.12s]  why do you think communism in the Soviet Union failed?\n",
            "[6198.12s -> 6202.28s]  I recoil at the idea of living in a communist system.\n",
            "[6203.24s -> 6204.52s]  And I don't know how much of that\n",
            "[6204.52s -> 6206.68s]  is just the biases of the world I've grown up in\n",
            "[6207.40s -> 6210.36s]  and what I have been taught\n",
            "[6210.36s -> 6212.44s]  and probably more than I realize.\n",
            "[6213.16s -> 6218.44s]  But I think like more individualism,\n",
            "[6218.44s -> 6220.44s]  more human will,\n",
            "[6220.44s -> 6225.72s]  more ability to self-determine is important.\n",
            "[6226.04s -> 6232.04s]  And also, I think the ability to try new things\n",
            "[6233.16s -> 6234.28s]  and not need permission\n",
            "[6234.28s -> 6236.28s]  and not need some sort of central planning,\n",
            "[6238.36s -> 6239.96s]  betting on human ingenuity\n",
            "[6239.96s -> 6242.20s]  and this sort of like distributed process,\n",
            "[6243.16s -> 6246.44s]  I believe is always going to beat centralized planning.\n",
            "[6248.76s -> 6251.96s]  And I think that like for all of the deep flaws of America,\n",
            "[6251.96s -> 6253.72s]  I think it is the greatest place in the world.\n",
            "[6254.04s -> 6254.60s]  I think it's the greatest place in the world\n",
            "[6256.12s -> 6257.16s]  because it's the best at this.\n",
            "[6257.16s -> 6259.96s]  So it's really interesting\n",
            "[6261.32s -> 6265.72s]  that centralized planning failed in such big ways.\n",
            "[6267.24s -> 6270.04s]  But what if hypothetically the centralized planning-\n",
            "[6270.04s -> 6272.20s]  It was a perfect super intelligent AGI.\n",
            "[6272.20s -> 6273.64s]  Super intelligent AGI.\n",
            "[6275.88s -> 6279.80s]  Again, it might go wrong in the same kind of ways,\n",
            "[6279.80s -> 6280.92s]  but it might not.\n",
            "[6280.92s -> 6281.64s]  We don't really know.\n",
            "[6282.52s -> 6283.24s]  We don't really know.\n",
            "[6283.32s -> 6283.88s]  It might be better.\n",
            "[6283.88s -> 6285.40s]  I expect it would be better,\n",
            "[6285.40s -> 6287.00s]  but would it be better than\n",
            "[6289.72s -> 6291.16s]  a hundred super intelligent\n",
            "[6291.16s -> 6293.32s]  or a thousand super intelligent AGIs\n",
            "[6293.32s -> 6296.28s]  sort of in a liberal democratic system?\n",
            "[6296.28s -> 6297.48s]  Arguably.\n",
            "[6298.04s -> 6298.54s]  Yes.\n",
            "[6300.12s -> 6302.28s]  Now, also how much of that can happen internally\n",
            "[6302.28s -> 6303.80s]  in one super intelligent AGI?\n",
            "[6304.76s -> 6305.48s]  Not so obvious.\n",
            "[6307.40s -> 6309.56s]  There is something about, right,\n",
            "[6309.56s -> 6311.40s]  but there is something about like tension,\n",
            "[6311.40s -> 6312.28s]  the competition.\n",
            "[6312.92s -> 6315.16s]  But you don't know that's not happening inside one model.\n",
            "[6315.72s -> 6317.24s]  Yeah, that's true.\n",
            "[6318.04s -> 6322.12s]  It'd be nice if whether it's engineered in\n",
            "[6322.12s -> 6324.92s]  or revealed to be happening,\n",
            "[6324.92s -> 6326.36s]  it'd be nice for it to be happening.\n",
            "[6327.40s -> 6329.32s]  Of course it can happen with multiple AGIs\n",
            "[6329.32s -> 6330.44s]  talking to each other or whatever.\n",
            "[6331.72s -> 6333.16s]  There's something also about,\n",
            "[6333.16s -> 6334.60s]  I mean, Stuart Russell has talked about\n",
            "[6334.60s -> 6335.80s]  the control problem of\n",
            "[6337.24s -> 6340.20s]  always having AGI to have some degree of uncertainty.\n",
            "[6340.76s -> 6343.16s]  Not having a dogmatic certainty to it.\n",
            "[6343.16s -> 6344.36s]  That feels important.\n",
            "[6345.24s -> 6346.60s]  So some of that is already handled\n",
            "[6346.60s -> 6347.64s]  with human alignment,\n",
            "[6349.16s -> 6350.20s]  human feedback,\n",
            "[6350.20s -> 6351.72s]  reinforcement learning with human feedback.\n",
            "[6352.28s -> 6354.20s]  But it feels like there has to be engineered\n",
            "[6354.20s -> 6356.52s]  in like a hard uncertainty.\n",
            "[6356.52s -> 6359.32s]  Humility, you can put a romantic word to it.\n",
            "[6359.32s -> 6359.82s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6360.68s -> 6361.72s]  Do you think that's possible to do?\n",
            "[6363.00s -> 6364.52s]  The definition of those words,\n",
            "[6364.52s -> 6366.12s]  I think the details really matter,\n",
            "[6366.12s -> 6368.12s]  but as I understand them, yes, I do.\n",
            "[6368.12s -> 6369.40s]  What about the off switch?\n",
            "[6370.84s -> 6372.44s]  That like big red button in the data center\n",
            "[6372.44s -> 6373.24s]  we don't tell anybody about.\n",
            "[6374.76s -> 6375.32s]  I'm a fan.\n",
            "[6376.04s -> 6376.76s]  My backpack.\n",
            "[6376.76s -> 6377.56s]  In your backpack.\n",
            "[6378.68s -> 6380.20s]  You think that's possible to have a switch?\n",
            "[6380.20s -> 6383.16s]  You think, I mean, actually more seriously,\n",
            "[6383.16s -> 6384.36s]  more specifically about\n",
            "[6384.92s -> 6387.56s]  sort of rolling out of different systems.\n",
            "[6387.56s -> 6389.16s]  Do you think it's possible to roll them,\n",
            "[6390.12s -> 6393.00s]  unroll them, pull them back in?\n",
            "[6393.00s -> 6395.64s]  Yeah. I mean, we can absolutely take a model\n",
            "[6395.64s -> 6396.92s]  back off the internet.\n",
            "[6396.92s -> 6397.64s]  We can like take,\n",
            "[6398.44s -> 6399.56s]  we can turn an API off.\n",
            "[6400.28s -> 6401.32s]  Isn't that something you worry about?\n",
            "[6401.32s -> 6402.28s]  Like when you release it\n",
            "[6402.84s -> 6404.84s]  and millions of people are using it\n",
            "[6404.84s -> 6406.60s]  and like you realize, holy crap,\n",
            "[6407.16s -> 6409.48s]  they're using it for, I don't know,\n",
            "[6409.48s -> 6412.68s]  worrying about the, like all kinds of terrible use cases.\n",
            "[6413.40s -> 6415.00s]  We do worry about that a lot.\n",
            "[6415.00s -> 6416.92s]  I mean, we try to figure out\n",
            "[6417.96s -> 6420.76s]  with as much red teaming and testing ahead of time as we do,\n",
            "[6422.04s -> 6423.48s]  how to avoid a lot of those.\n",
            "[6423.48s -> 6425.80s]  But I can't emphasize enough\n",
            "[6425.80s -> 6428.44s]  how much the collective intelligence\n",
            "[6428.44s -> 6430.04s]  and creativity of the world\n",
            "[6430.44s -> 6431.24s]  will beat open AI\n",
            "[6431.24s -> 6432.92s]  and all of the red teamers we can hire.\n",
            "[6433.64s -> 6435.80s]  So we put it out,\n",
            "[6435.80s -> 6437.40s]  but we put it out in a way we can make changes.\n",
            "[6438.28s -> 6440.20s]  In the millions of people that have used\n",
            "[6440.20s -> 6441.48s]  the chat GPT and GPT,\n",
            "[6441.48s -> 6443.80s]  what have you learned about human civilization in general?\n",
            "[6444.76s -> 6446.04s]  I mean, the question I ask is,\n",
            "[6446.04s -> 6447.08s]  are we mostly good\n",
            "[6448.68s -> 6452.84s]  or is there a lot of malevolence in the human spirit?\n",
            "[6452.84s -> 6454.04s]  Well, to be clear, I don't,\n",
            "[6455.08s -> 6456.28s]  nor does anyone else at OpenAI\n",
            "[6456.28s -> 6459.24s]  that they're like reading all the chat GPT messages.\n",
            "[6459.56s -> 6464.76s]  But from what I hear people using it for,\n",
            "[6464.76s -> 6465.88s]  at least the people I talk to,\n",
            "[6466.44s -> 6468.36s]  and from what I see on Twitter,\n",
            "[6469.00s -> 6470.52s]  we are definitely mostly good,\n",
            "[6471.40s -> 6478.28s]  but A, not all of us are all of the time\n",
            "[6478.28s -> 6482.20s]  and B, we really want to push on the edges of these systems.\n",
            "[6482.92s -> 6485.96s]  And, you know, we really want to test out\n",
            "[6485.96s -> 6488.12s]  some darker theories of the world.\n",
            "[6488.76s -> 6489.96s]  Yeah, it's very interesting.\n",
            "[6490.60s -> 6491.56s]  It's very interesting.\n",
            "[6491.56s -> 6492.60s]  And I think that's not,\n",
            "[6493.56s -> 6495.08s]  that actually doesn't communicate the fact\n",
            "[6495.08s -> 6497.96s]  that we're like fundamentally dark inside,\n",
            "[6497.96s -> 6500.68s]  but we like to go to the dark places\n",
            "[6500.68s -> 6505.24s]  in order to maybe rediscover the light.\n",
            "[6506.68s -> 6508.52s]  It feels like dark humor is a part of that.\n",
            "[6508.52s -> 6509.72s]  Some of the darkest,\n",
            "[6509.72s -> 6511.16s]  some of the toughest things you go through\n",
            "[6511.16s -> 6512.68s]  if you suffer in life in a war zone,\n",
            "[6513.48s -> 6514.76s]  the people I've interacted with\n",
            "[6514.76s -> 6515.96s]  that are in the midst of a war,\n",
            "[6515.96s -> 6517.08s]  they're usually joking around.\n",
            "[6517.40s -> 6517.64s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6517.64s -> 6520.12s]  Joking around and they're dark jokes.\n",
            "[6520.12s -> 6520.36s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6521.56s -> 6523.56s]  So that there's something there.\n",
            "[6523.56s -> 6524.44s]  I totally agree.\n",
            "[6524.44s -> 6525.32s]  About that tension.\n",
            "[6525.96s -> 6527.64s]  So just to the model,\n",
            "[6528.68s -> 6531.00s]  how do you decide what isn't misinformation?\n",
            "[6531.72s -> 6532.92s]  How do you decide what is true?\n",
            "[6532.92s -> 6534.04s]  You actually have OpenAI's\n",
            "[6534.04s -> 6535.96s]  internal factual performance benchmark.\n",
            "[6535.96s -> 6537.64s]  There's a lot of cool benchmarks here.\n",
            "[6538.76s -> 6541.16s]  How do you build a benchmark for what is true?\n",
            "[6542.20s -> 6544.60s]  What is truth, Sam Albin?\n",
            "[6544.92s -> 6546.04s]  Math is true.\n",
            "[6546.04s -> 6547.24s]  And the origin of COVID\n",
            "[6547.96s -> 6549.48s]  is not agreed upon as ground truth.\n",
            "[6551.40s -> 6552.84s]  Those are the two things.\n",
            "[6552.84s -> 6556.04s]  And then there's stuff that's certainly not true.\n",
            "[6559.24s -> 6562.76s]  But between that first and second milestone,\n",
            "[6563.96s -> 6565.08s]  there's a lot of disagreement.\n",
            "[6565.72s -> 6567.08s]  What do you look for?\n",
            "[6567.08s -> 6570.44s]  What can, not even just now, but in the future,\n",
            "[6571.40s -> 6574.84s]  where can we as a human civilization look for,\n",
            "[6575.64s -> 6576.76s]  look to for truth?\n",
            "[6577.64s -> 6578.60s]  What do you know is true?\n",
            "[6579.56s -> 6581.08s]  What are you absolutely certain is true?\n",
            "[6586.36s -> 6590.12s]  I have generally epistemic humility about everything\n",
            "[6590.12s -> 6592.04s]  and I'm freaked out by how little I know\n",
            "[6592.04s -> 6593.48s]  and understand about the world.\n",
            "[6593.48s -> 6595.56s]  So even that question is terrifying to me.\n",
            "[6595.96s -> 6597.00s]  There's a bucket of things\n",
            "[6597.00s -> 6600.44s]  that have a high degree of truth in this,\n",
            "[6600.44s -> 6603.00s]  which is where you would put math, a lot of math.\n",
            "[6603.00s -> 6605.00s]  Yeah, can't be certain,\n",
            "[6605.00s -> 6606.44s]  but it's good enough for this conversation\n",
            "[6606.44s -> 6607.88s]  where you can say math is true.\n",
            "[6607.88s -> 6611.40s]  Yeah, I mean, some, quite a bit of physics.\n",
            "[6612.04s -> 6613.56s]  There's historical facts,\n",
            "[6615.72s -> 6617.72s]  maybe dates of when a war started.\n",
            "[6618.44s -> 6620.92s]  There's a lot of details about military conflict\n",
            "[6620.92s -> 6622.36s]  inside of history.\n",
            "[6623.24s -> 6624.60s]  Of course, you start to get,\n",
            "[6624.60s -> 6627.96s]  I just read Blitzt, which is this-\n",
            "[6627.96s -> 6628.84s]  Oh, I wanna read that.\n",
            "[6628.84s -> 6629.64s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6629.64s -> 6630.44s]  How was it?\n",
            "[6630.44s -> 6631.64s]  It was really good.\n",
            "[6631.64s -> 6636.04s]  It gives a theory of Nazi Germany and Hitler\n",
            "[6636.04s -> 6638.92s]  that so much can be described about Hitler\n",
            "[6638.92s -> 6642.28s]  and a lot of the upper echelon of Nazi Germany\n",
            "[6642.28s -> 6644.12s]  through the excessive use of drugs.\n",
            "[6644.12s -> 6645.96s]  Just amphetamines, right?\n",
            "[6645.96s -> 6647.64s]  Amphetamines, but also other stuff,\n",
            "[6647.64s -> 6649.16s]  but it's just a lot.\n",
            "[6649.24s -> 6650.12s]  That's really interesting.\n",
            "[6650.12s -> 6650.92s]  It's really compelling.\n",
            "[6650.92s -> 6654.28s]  If for some reason, like, whoa, that's really,\n",
            "[6654.28s -> 6655.56s]  that would explain a lot.\n",
            "[6655.56s -> 6657.24s]  That's somehow really sticky.\n",
            "[6657.24s -> 6658.28s]  It's an idea that's sticky.\n",
            "[6658.28s -> 6660.28s]  And then you read a lot of criticism\n",
            "[6660.28s -> 6662.36s]  of that book later by historians,\n",
            "[6662.36s -> 6663.64s]  that that's actually,\n",
            "[6663.64s -> 6665.64s]  there's a lot of cherry picking going on,\n",
            "[6665.64s -> 6667.40s]  and it's actually, is using the fact\n",
            "[6667.40s -> 6669.16s]  that that's a very sticky explanation.\n",
            "[6669.16s -> 6670.20s]  There's something about humans\n",
            "[6670.20s -> 6671.56s]  that likes a very simple narrative\n",
            "[6671.56s -> 6672.60s]  to describe everything.\n",
            "[6672.60s -> 6673.48s]  For sure, for sure.\n",
            "[6673.48s -> 6674.60s]  Yeah, too much information.\n",
            "[6674.60s -> 6675.64s]  Yeah, too much information.\n",
            "[6675.64s -> 6677.16s]  Yeah, and then you read a lot of books\n",
            "[6677.16s -> 6677.72s]  that describe everything.\n",
            "[6677.72s -> 6678.28s]  For sure, for sure.\n",
            "[6678.28s -> 6678.68s]  And then-\n",
            "[6678.68s -> 6681.00s]  Yeah, too much amphetamines caused the war\n",
            "[6681.00s -> 6683.64s]  is like a great, even if not true,\n",
            "[6683.64s -> 6687.32s]  simple explanation that feels satisfying\n",
            "[6688.04s -> 6689.80s]  and excuses a lot of other,\n",
            "[6689.80s -> 6692.44s]  probably much darker human truths.\n",
            "[6692.44s -> 6697.72s]  Yeah, the military strategy employed the atrocities,\n",
            "[6698.44s -> 6699.40s]  the speeches,\n",
            "[6701.72s -> 6703.96s]  just the way Hitler was as a human being,\n",
            "[6703.96s -> 6705.56s]  the way Hitler was as a leader,\n",
            "[6705.56s -> 6706.60s]  all of that could be explained\n",
            "[6706.60s -> 6708.20s]  through this one little lens.\n",
            "[6708.20s -> 6711.00s]  And it's like, well, if you say that's true,\n",
            "[6711.00s -> 6712.36s]  that's a really compelling truth.\n",
            "[6712.36s -> 6714.92s]  So maybe truth is, in one sense,\n",
            "[6714.92s -> 6715.88s]  is defined as a thing\n",
            "[6715.88s -> 6717.40s]  that is a collective intelligence\n",
            "[6717.40s -> 6721.00s]  we kind of all our brains are sticking to.\n",
            "[6721.00s -> 6722.52s]  And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.\n",
            "[6722.52s -> 6725.32s]  A bunch of ants get together and like,\n",
            "[6725.32s -> 6726.36s]  yeah, this is it.\n",
            "[6726.36s -> 6727.24s]  I was gonna say sheep,\n",
            "[6727.24s -> 6728.68s]  but there's a connotation to that.\n",
            "[6729.72s -> 6732.20s]  But yeah, it's hard to know what is true.\n",
            "[6732.20s -> 6736.28s]  And I think when constructing a GPT-like model,\n",
            "[6736.28s -> 6737.40s]  you have to contend with that.\n",
            "[6738.12s -> 6739.64s]  I think a lot of the answers,\n",
            "[6739.64s -> 6741.88s]  if you ask GPT-4,\n",
            "[6743.08s -> 6744.28s]  just to stick on the same topic,\n",
            "[6744.28s -> 6745.40s]  did COVID leak from a lab?\n",
            "[6745.96s -> 6748.36s]  I expect you would get a reasonable answer.\n",
            "[6748.36s -> 6749.48s]  It's a really good answer, yeah.\n",
            "[6750.12s -> 6752.36s]  It laid out the hypotheses.\n",
            "[6754.28s -> 6755.64s]  The interesting thing it said,\n",
            "[6756.44s -> 6757.80s]  which is refreshing to hear,\n",
            "[6758.52s -> 6760.68s]  is there's something like\n",
            "[6760.68s -> 6763.16s]  there's very little evidence for either hypothesis,\n",
            "[6763.16s -> 6764.36s]  direct evidence,\n",
            "[6764.36s -> 6766.12s]  which is important to state.\n",
            "[6766.12s -> 6767.32s]  A lot of people kind of,\n",
            "[6767.32s -> 6769.96s]  the reason why there's a lot of uncertainty\n",
            "[6771.08s -> 6771.88s]  and a lot of debate\n",
            "[6771.88s -> 6775.08s]  is because there's not strong physical evidence of either.\n",
            "[6775.08s -> 6777.24s]  Heavy circumstantial evidence on either side.\n",
            "[6777.24s -> 6779.80s]  And then the other is more like biological,\n",
            "[6779.80s -> 6782.12s]  theoretical kind of discussion.\n",
            "[6782.92s -> 6783.96s]  And I think the answer,\n",
            "[6783.96s -> 6785.72s]  the nuanced answer the GPT provider\n",
            "[6785.72s -> 6788.20s]  was actually pretty damn good.\n",
            "[6788.20s -> 6790.04s]  And also, importantly,\n",
            "[6790.04s -> 6791.32s]  saying that there is uncertainty.\n",
            "[6791.32s -> 6793.32s]  Just the fact that there is uncertainty\n",
            "[6793.32s -> 6795.08s]  as a statement was really powerful.\n",
            "[6795.08s -> 6797.16s]  Man, remember when the social media platforms\n",
            "[6797.16s -> 6800.76s]  were banning people for saying it was a lab leak?\n",
            "[6801.64s -> 6802.14s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6802.68s -> 6803.96s]  That's really humbling.\n",
            "[6803.96s -> 6806.92s]  The humbling, the overreach of power in censorship.\n",
            "[6807.80s -> 6810.76s]  But the more powerful GPT becomes,\n",
            "[6810.76s -> 6812.44s]  the more pressure there'll be to censor.\n",
            "[6814.20s -> 6817.00s]  We have a different set of challenges\n",
            "[6817.00s -> 6819.48s]  faced by the previous generation of companies.\n",
            "[6820.20s -> 6826.12s]  Which is, people talk about free speech issues with GPT,\n",
            "[6826.12s -> 6827.48s]  but it's not quite the same thing.\n",
            "[6827.48s -> 6829.96s]  It's not like, this is a computer program\n",
            "[6829.96s -> 6830.60s]  when it's allowed to say,\n",
            "[6830.60s -> 6833.00s]  and it's also not about the mass spread\n",
            "[6833.00s -> 6835.24s]  and the challenges that I think may have made\n",
            "[6835.80s -> 6837.16s]  that Twitter and Facebook and others\n",
            "[6837.16s -> 6838.68s]  have struggled with so much.\n",
            "[6838.68s -> 6841.96s]  So we will have very significant challenges,\n",
            "[6841.96s -> 6843.56s]  but they'll be very new and very different.\n",
            "[6846.28s -> 6848.44s]  And maybe, yeah, very new, very different\n",
            "[6848.44s -> 6849.48s]  is a good way to put it.\n",
            "[6849.48s -> 6851.80s]  There could be truths that are harmful in their truth.\n",
            "[6853.48s -> 6853.96s]  I don't know.\n",
            "[6854.60s -> 6856.44s]  Group differences in IQ.\n",
            "[6856.44s -> 6856.94s]  There you go.\n",
            "[6858.60s -> 6861.96s]  Scientific work that when spoken might do more harm.\n",
            "[6863.16s -> 6865.48s]  And you ask GPT that, should GPT tell you?\n",
            "[6866.12s -> 6867.40s]  There's books written on this\n",
            "[6868.04s -> 6869.80s]  that are rigorous scientifically,\n",
            "[6869.80s -> 6871.72s]  but are very uncomfortable\n",
            "[6872.28s -> 6875.40s]  and probably not productive in any sense,\n",
            "[6875.40s -> 6876.36s]  but maybe are.\n",
            "[6876.36s -> 6878.84s]  There's people arguing all kinds of sides of this.\n",
            "[6879.48s -> 6881.32s]  And a lot of them have hate in their heart.\n",
            "[6881.88s -> 6882.76s]  And so what do you do with that?\n",
            "[6882.76s -> 6884.68s]  If there's a large number of people who hate others,\n",
            "[6885.72s -> 6889.08s]  but are actually citing scientific studies,\n",
            "[6889.08s -> 6889.72s]  what do you do with that?\n",
            "[6889.72s -> 6891.16s]  What does GPT do with that?\n",
            "[6891.16s -> 6892.52s]  What is the priority of GPT\n",
            "[6892.52s -> 6894.12s]  to decrease the amount of hate in the world?\n",
            "[6894.92s -> 6895.96s]  Is it up to GPT?\n",
            "[6895.96s -> 6897.08s]  Is it up to us humans?\n",
            "[6897.08s -> 6900.68s]  I think we as OpenAI have responsibility for\n",
            "[6902.68s -> 6904.36s]  the tools we put out into the world.\n",
            "[6904.36s -> 6907.00s]  I think the tools themselves can't have responsibility\n",
            "[6907.00s -> 6908.36s]  in the way I understand it.\n",
            "[6908.36s -> 6911.72s]  Wow, so you carry some of that burden responsibility.\n",
            "[6911.72s -> 6914.36s]  For sure, all of us, all of us at the company.\n",
            "[6917.56s -> 6920.76s]  So there could be harm caused by this tool.\n",
            "[6920.76s -> 6922.36s]  And there will be harm caused by this tool.\n",
            "[6923.88s -> 6924.76s]  There will be harm.\n",
            "[6924.76s -> 6926.12s]  There'll be tremendous benefits,\n",
            "[6926.84s -> 6931.80s]  but tools do wonderful good and real bad.\n",
            "[6934.20s -> 6936.36s]  And we will minimize the bad and maximize the good.\n",
            "[6936.92s -> 6939.08s]  And you have to carry the weight of that.\n",
            "[6941.24s -> 6944.68s]  How do you avoid GPT-4 from being hacked or jailbroken?\n",
            "[6945.64s -> 6947.72s]  There's a lot of interesting ways that people have done that,\n",
            "[6948.52s -> 6952.84s]  like with token smuggling or other methods like Dan.\n",
            "[6954.04s -> 6957.16s]  You know, when I was like a kid, basically,\n",
            "[6957.16s -> 6960.12s]  I worked once on jailbreaking an iPhone,\n",
            "[6960.12s -> 6961.16s]  the first iPhone, I think.\n",
            "[6962.12s -> 6966.28s]  And I thought it was so cool.\n",
            "[6968.92s -> 6971.08s]  And I will say it's very strange to be on the other side of that.\n",
            "[6973.32s -> 6974.20s]  You're now the man.\n",
            "[6974.20s -> 6975.32s]  It kind of sucks.\n",
            "[6979.08s -> 6981.72s]  Is that, is some of it fun?\n",
            "[6981.72s -> 6983.32s]  How much of it is a security threat?\n",
            "[6984.44s -> 6986.44s]  How much do you have to take it seriously?\n",
            "[6986.44s -> 6988.76s]  How is it even possible to solve this problem?\n",
            "[6988.76s -> 6990.12s]  Where does it rank on the set of problems?\n",
            "[6990.12s -> 6992.04s]  I just keep asking questions, prompting.\n",
            "[6992.76s -> 6998.36s]  We want users to have a lot of control\n",
            "[6998.36s -> 7000.52s]  and get the models to behave in the way they want\n",
            "[7003.08s -> 7004.76s]  within some very broad bounds.\n",
            "[7005.40s -> 7009.24s]  And I think the whole reason for jailbreaking is right now,\n",
            "[7009.24s -> 7012.36s]  we haven't yet figured out how to like give that to people.\n",
            "[7012.92s -> 7015.16s]  And the more we solve that problem,\n",
            "[7015.72s -> 7017.72s]  I think the less need there will be for jailbreaking.\n",
            "[7018.36s -> 7021.56s]  Yeah, it's kind of like piracy gave birth to Spotify.\n",
            "[7022.60s -> 7024.92s]  People don't really jailbreak iPhones that much anymore.\n",
            "[7024.92s -> 7026.36s]  And it's gotten harder for sure.\n",
            "[7026.36s -> 7028.60s]  But also like you can just do a lot of stuff now.\n",
            "[7029.80s -> 7031.32s]  Just like with jailbreaking,\n",
            "[7031.32s -> 7033.24s]  I mean, there's a lot of hilarity that is in.\n",
            "[7035.56s -> 7039.24s]  So Evan Murakawa, cool guy.\n",
            "[7039.24s -> 7040.28s]  He's at OpenAI.\n",
            "[7040.28s -> 7043.08s]  He tweeted something that he also was really kind\n",
            "[7043.08s -> 7045.48s]  to send me, to communicate with me,\n",
            "[7045.48s -> 7048.52s]  send me long email describing the history of OpenAI,\n",
            "[7048.52s -> 7049.56s]  all the different developments.\n",
            "[7051.48s -> 7052.76s]  He really lays it out.\n",
            "[7052.76s -> 7054.44s]  I mean, that's a much longer conversation\n",
            "[7054.44s -> 7055.72s]  of all the awesome stuff that happened.\n",
            "[7055.72s -> 7057.08s]  It's just amazing.\n",
            "[7057.08s -> 7057.96s]  But his tweet was,\n",
            "[7059.00s -> 7062.28s]  Dolly, July 22, Chad GPT, November 22,\n",
            "[7062.28s -> 7064.84s]  API 66% cheaper, August 22,\n",
            "[7064.84s -> 7068.28s]  embeddings 500 times cheaper while state of the art,\n",
            "[7068.28s -> 7071.80s]  December 22, Chad GPT API also 10 times cheaper\n",
            "[7071.80s -> 7074.12s]  while state of the art, March 23,\n",
            "[7074.12s -> 7077.24s]  Whisper API, March 23, GPT 4 today,\n",
            "[7077.24s -> 7078.52s]  whenever that was last week.\n",
            "[7079.64s -> 7084.52s]  And the conclusion is this team ships.\n",
            "[7084.52s -> 7085.02s]  We do.\n",
            "[7085.88s -> 7087.32s]  What's the process of going,\n",
            "[7087.32s -> 7088.76s]  and then we can extend that back.\n",
            "[7089.32s -> 7093.72s]  I mean, listen, from the 2015 OpenAI launch,\n",
            "[7093.72s -> 7099.00s]  GPT, GPT 2, GPT 3, OpenAI 5 finals with the gaming stuff,\n",
            "[7099.00s -> 7100.04s]  which is incredible.\n",
            "[7100.04s -> 7104.28s]  GPT 3 API released, Dolly, instruct GPT tech,\n",
            "[7105.32s -> 7106.04s]  fine tuning.\n",
            "[7107.08s -> 7109.64s]  There's just a million things available.\n",
            "[7109.64s -> 7112.60s]  Dolly, Dolly 2 preview,\n",
            "[7112.60s -> 7115.08s]  and then Dolly is available to 1 million people.\n",
            "[7115.08s -> 7117.16s]  Whisper, a second model release,\n",
            "[7118.04s -> 7119.40s]  across all of this stuff,\n",
            "[7119.40s -> 7123.80s]  both research and deployment of actual products\n",
            "[7123.80s -> 7125.00s]  that could be in the hands of people.\n",
            "[7125.72s -> 7128.52s]  What is the process of going from idea to deployment\n",
            "[7128.52s -> 7130.28s]  that allows you to be so successful\n",
            "[7130.28s -> 7133.72s]  at shipping AI based products?\n",
            "[7134.60s -> 7135.56s]  I mean, there's a question of,\n",
            "[7135.56s -> 7136.84s]  should we be really proud of that\n",
            "[7136.84s -> 7138.52s]  or should other companies be really embarrassed?\n",
            "[7139.32s -> 7139.88s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[7139.88s -> 7143.32s]  And we believe in a very high bar\n",
            "[7143.32s -> 7144.28s]  for the people on the team.\n",
            "[7145.24s -> 7148.36s]  We work hard,\n",
            "[7149.64s -> 7152.36s]  which you're not even supposed to say anymore or something.\n",
            "[7153.08s -> 7159.72s]  We give a huge amount of trust and autonomy and authority\n",
            "[7159.72s -> 7160.76s]  to individual people.\n",
            "[7161.72s -> 7164.20s]  And we try to hold each other to very high standards.\n",
            "[7165.40s -> 7170.04s]  And, you know, there's a process which we can talk about,\n",
            "[7170.04s -> 7171.32s]  but it won't be that illuminating.\n",
            "[7172.20s -> 7173.72s]  I think it's those other things\n",
            "[7173.72s -> 7176.84s]  that make us able to ship at a high velocity.\n",
            "[7177.48s -> 7179.80s]  So GPT 4 is a pretty complex system.\n",
            "[7179.80s -> 7182.28s]  Like you said, there's like a million little hacks\n",
            "[7182.28s -> 7183.48s]  you can do to keep improving it.\n",
            "[7184.36s -> 7186.52s]  There's the cleaning up the data set,\n",
            "[7186.52s -> 7188.76s]  all that, all those are like separate teams.\n",
            "[7188.76s -> 7190.52s]  So do you give autonomy?\n",
            "[7190.52s -> 7193.24s]  Is there just autonomy to these fascinating,\n",
            "[7193.24s -> 7195.00s]  different problems?\n",
            "[7195.00s -> 7196.52s]  If like most people in the company\n",
            "[7196.52s -> 7198.52s]  weren't really excited to work super hard\n",
            "[7198.52s -> 7200.04s]  and collaborate well on GPT 4\n",
            "[7200.04s -> 7202.20s]  and thought other stuff was more important,\n",
            "[7202.20s -> 7204.20s]  there'd be very little I or anybody else could do\n",
            "[7204.20s -> 7204.92s]  to make it happen.\n",
            "[7205.96s -> 7210.44s]  But we spend a lot of time figuring out what to do,\n",
            "[7210.44s -> 7212.84s]  getting on the same page about why we're doing something,\n",
            "[7213.48s -> 7216.60s]  and then how to divide it up and all coordinate together.\n",
            "[7216.60s -> 7221.88s]  So then you have like a passion for the goal here.\n",
            "[7222.44s -> 7224.44s]  So everybody's really passionate across the different teams.\n",
            "[7224.44s -> 7225.32s]  Yeah, we care.\n",
            "[7225.96s -> 7226.68s]  How do you hire?\n",
            "[7227.40s -> 7228.44s]  How do you hire great teams?\n",
            "[7229.64s -> 7231.24s]  The folks I've interacted with OpenAI\n",
            "[7231.24s -> 7233.40s]  are some of the most amazing folks I've ever met.\n",
            "[7233.40s -> 7234.36s]  It takes a lot of time.\n",
            "[7234.36s -> 7239.24s]  Like I spend, I mean, I think a lot of people claim\n",
            "[7239.24s -> 7241.00s]  to spend a third of their time hiring.\n",
            "[7241.00s -> 7242.28s]  I for real truly do.\n",
            "[7243.64s -> 7245.64s]  I still approve every single hire at OpenAI.\n",
            "[7246.92s -> 7249.40s]  And I think there's, you know,\n",
            "[7249.40s -> 7251.08s]  we're working on a problem that is like very cool\n",
            "[7251.08s -> 7252.44s]  and that great people wanna work on.\n",
            "[7252.44s -> 7254.68s]  We have great people and some people wanna be around them.\n",
            "[7254.68s -> 7257.08s]  But even with that, I think there's just no shortcut\n",
            "[7257.08s -> 7260.60s]  for putting a ton of effort into this.\n",
            "[7263.56s -> 7266.68s]  So even when you have the good people, hard work?\n",
            "[7267.24s -> 7267.80s]  I think so.\n",
            "[7269.64s -> 7271.96s]  Microsoft announced the new multi-year,\n",
            "[7271.96s -> 7275.96s]  multi-billion dollar reported to be $10 billion investment\n",
            "[7275.96s -> 7277.08s]  into OpenAI.\n",
            "[7277.64s -> 7280.76s]  Can you describe the thinking that went into this?\n",
            "[7282.20s -> 7282.84s]  What are the pros?\n",
            "[7282.84s -> 7286.04s]  What are the cons of working with a company like Microsoft?\n",
            "[7287.88s -> 7291.24s]  It's not all perfect or easy,\n",
            "[7291.24s -> 7294.20s]  but on the whole, they have been an amazing partner to us.\n",
            "[7294.36s -> 7299.64s]  Satya and Kevin and Mikhail are super aligned with us,\n",
            "[7300.52s -> 7303.64s]  super flexible, have gone like way above\n",
            "[7303.64s -> 7305.32s]  and beyond the call of duty to do things\n",
            "[7305.32s -> 7307.16s]  that we have needed to get all this to work.\n",
            "[7308.12s -> 7310.84s]  This is like a big iron complicated engineering project.\n",
            "[7311.88s -> 7313.88s]  And they are a big and complex company.\n",
            "[7314.60s -> 7319.00s]  And I think like many great partnerships or relationships,\n",
            "[7319.00s -> 7320.92s]  we've sort of just continued to ramp up\n",
            "[7320.92s -> 7322.28s]  our investment in each other.\n",
            "[7322.36s -> 7323.16s]  It's been very good.\n",
            "[7324.36s -> 7326.28s]  It's a for-profit company.\n",
            "[7326.28s -> 7327.56s]  It's very driven.\n",
            "[7328.44s -> 7329.80s]  It's very large scale.\n",
            "[7331.56s -> 7334.28s]  Is there pressure to kind of make a lot of money?\n",
            "[7334.28s -> 7338.44s]  I think most other companies wouldn't,\n",
            "[7338.44s -> 7339.48s]  maybe now they would,\n",
            "[7339.48s -> 7341.08s]  it wouldn't at the time have understood\n",
            "[7341.08s -> 7343.56s]  why we needed all the weird control provisions we have\n",
            "[7343.56s -> 7346.52s]  and why we need all the kind of like AGI specialness.\n",
            "[7348.84s -> 7349.72s]  And I know that actually.\n",
            "[7350.12s -> 7353.48s]  And I know that because I talked to some other companies\n",
            "[7353.48s -> 7355.16s]  before we did the first deal with Microsoft.\n",
            "[7356.68s -> 7359.16s]  And I think they are unique in terms of the companies\n",
            "[7359.16s -> 7361.88s]  at that scale that understood\n",
            "[7361.88s -> 7364.52s]  why we needed the control provisions we have.\n",
            "[7365.32s -> 7367.48s]  And so those control provisions help you,\n",
            "[7367.48s -> 7370.60s]  help make sure that the capitalist imperative\n",
            "[7370.60s -> 7373.32s]  does not affect the development of AI.\n",
            "[7375.88s -> 7378.44s]  Well, let me just ask you as an aside\n",
            "[7378.44s -> 7381.64s]  about Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft.\n",
            "[7381.64s -> 7384.20s]  He seems to have successfully transformed Microsoft\n",
            "[7384.92s -> 7390.20s]  into this fresh, innovative, developer-friendly company.\n",
            "[7390.20s -> 7390.84s]  I agree.\n",
            "[7390.84s -> 7393.08s]  What do you, I mean, it's really hard to do\n",
            "[7393.08s -> 7394.12s]  for a very large company.\n",
            "[7395.96s -> 7397.40s]  What have you learned from him?\n",
            "[7397.40s -> 7399.48s]  Why do you think he was able to do this kind of thing?\n",
            "[7401.48s -> 7403.80s]  Yeah, what insights do you have\n",
            "[7403.80s -> 7406.60s]  about why this one human being is able to contribute\n",
            "[7406.60s -> 7410.36s]  to the pivot of a large company into something very new?\n",
            "[7411.72s -> 7417.08s]  I think most CEOs are either great leaders\n",
            "[7417.08s -> 7418.12s]  or great managers.\n",
            "[7419.56s -> 7424.20s]  And from what I have observed with Satya, he is both.\n",
            "[7425.96s -> 7430.52s]  Super visionary, really like gets people excited,\n",
            "[7430.52s -> 7434.92s]  really makes long duration and correct calls.\n",
            "[7437.08s -> 7440.84s]  And also he is just a super effective,\n",
            "[7440.84s -> 7443.56s]  hands-on executive and I assume manager too.\n",
            "[7444.60s -> 7445.88s]  And I think that's pretty rare.\n",
            "[7448.12s -> 7450.28s]  I mean, Microsoft, I'm guessing like IBM\n",
            "[7450.28s -> 7452.52s]  or like a lot of companies have been at it for a while,\n",
            "[7453.48s -> 7456.44s]  probably have like old school kind of momentum.\n",
            "[7457.56s -> 7460.36s]  So you like inject AI into it, it's very tough.\n",
            "[7460.92s -> 7464.36s]  Or anything, even like the culture of open source.\n",
            "[7466.76s -> 7470.04s]  Like how hard is it to walk into a room and be like,\n",
            "[7470.04s -> 7472.44s]  the way we've been doing things are totally wrong.\n",
            "[7472.44s -> 7474.76s]  Like I'm sure there's a lot of firing involved\n",
            "[7474.76s -> 7477.24s]  or a little like twisting of arms or something.\n",
            "[7477.24s -> 7479.16s]  So do you have to rule by fear, by love?\n",
            "[7479.16s -> 7481.72s]  Like what can you say to the leadership aspect of this?\n",
            "[7482.84s -> 7484.44s]  I mean, he's just like done an unbelievable job,\n",
            "[7484.44s -> 7490.52s]  but he is amazing at being like clear and firm\n",
            "[7492.28s -> 7494.84s]  and getting people to want to come along.\n",
            "[7495.40s -> 7500.92s]  But also like compassionate and patient with his people too.\n",
            "[7501.56s -> 7504.12s]  I'm getting a lot of love, not fear.\n",
            "[7504.68s -> 7505.72s]  I'm a big Satya fan.\n",
            "[7505.72s -> 7508.60s]  So am I from a distance.\n",
            "[7509.24s -> 7512.60s]  I mean, you have so much in your life trajectory\n",
            "[7512.60s -> 7513.40s]  that I can ask you about.\n",
            "[7513.40s -> 7515.16s]  We could probably talk for many more hours.\n",
            "[7515.16s -> 7517.24s]  But I gotta ask you because of Y Combinator,\n",
            "[7517.24s -> 7519.56s]  because of startups and so on, the recent,\n",
            "[7520.60s -> 7521.72s]  and you've tweeted about this,\n",
            "[7522.68s -> 7525.88s]  about the Silicon Valley Bank, SVB.\n",
            "[7525.88s -> 7528.52s]  What's your best understanding of what happened?\n",
            "[7528.52s -> 7531.32s]  What is interesting to understand\n",
            "[7531.32s -> 7532.44s]  about what happened with SVB?\n",
            "[7532.44s -> 7535.56s]  I think they just like horribly mismanaged\n",
            "[7537.00s -> 7540.68s]  buying while chasing returns\n",
            "[7540.68s -> 7543.72s]  in a very silly world of 0% interest rates.\n",
            "[7546.12s -> 7548.52s]  Buying very long dated instruments,\n",
            "[7549.08s -> 7552.52s]  secured by very short-term and variable deposits.\n",
            "[7553.56s -> 7555.96s]  And this was obviously dumb.\n",
            "[7557.72s -> 7563.72s]  I think totally the fault of the management team,\n",
            "[7563.72s -> 7565.48s]  although I'm not sure what the regulators\n",
            "[7565.48s -> 7566.36s]  were thinking either.\n",
            "[7568.04s -> 7572.68s]  And is an example of where I think\n",
            "[7573.96s -> 7576.36s]  you see the dangers of incentive misalignment.\n",
            "[7576.60s -> 7581.64s]  Because as the Fed kept raising,\n",
            "[7582.92s -> 7587.64s]  I assume that the incentives on people working at SVB\n",
            "[7587.64s -> 7592.84s]  to not sell at a loss their super safe bonds,\n",
            "[7592.84s -> 7594.68s]  which were now down 20% or whatever,\n",
            "[7595.96s -> 7598.20s]  or down less than that, but then kept going down.\n",
            "[7601.00s -> 7603.40s]  That's like a classic example of incentive misalignment.\n",
            "[7603.64s -> 7605.56s]  Now I suspect they're not the only bank\n",
            "[7605.56s -> 7606.60s]  in a bad position here.\n",
            "[7607.64s -> 7609.88s]  The response of the federal government,\n",
            "[7610.44s -> 7612.68s]  I think took much longer than it should have.\n",
            "[7612.68s -> 7614.28s]  But by Sunday afternoon,\n",
            "[7614.28s -> 7615.88s]  I was glad they had done what they've done.\n",
            "[7616.84s -> 7618.12s]  We'll see what happens next.\n",
            "[7619.16s -> 7621.96s]  So how do you avoid depositors from doubting their bank?\n",
            "[7621.96s -> 7625.72s]  What I think would be good to do right now is just,\n",
            "[7626.76s -> 7629.08s]  and this requires statutory change,\n",
            "[7629.08s -> 7632.04s]  but it may be a good thing to do.\n",
            "[7632.04s -> 7635.00s]  But it may be a full guarantee of deposits,\n",
            "[7635.00s -> 7636.68s]  maybe a much, much higher than 250K.\n",
            "[7637.40s -> 7640.44s]  But you really don't want depositors\n",
            "[7641.64s -> 7647.08s]  having to doubt the security of their deposits.\n",
            "[7647.08s -> 7649.00s]  And this thing that a lot of people on Twitter were saying,\n",
            "[7649.00s -> 7650.04s]  it's like, well, it's their fault.\n",
            "[7650.04s -> 7651.40s]  They should have been like, you know,\n",
            "[7651.40s -> 7654.68s]  reading the balance sheet and the risk audit of the bank.\n",
            "[7654.68s -> 7656.76s]  Like, do we really want people to have to do that?\n",
            "[7656.76s -> 7657.56s]  I would argue no.\n",
            "[7658.04s -> 7661.32s]  What impact has it had on the startups that you see?\n",
            "[7661.32s -> 7663.32s]  Well, there was a weekend of terror for sure.\n",
            "[7664.20s -> 7666.84s]  And now I think even though it was only 10 days ago,\n",
            "[7666.84s -> 7669.16s]  it feels like forever and people have forgotten about it.\n",
            "[7669.16s -> 7671.64s]  But it kind of reveals the fragility of our economic system.\n",
            "[7671.64s -> 7672.68s]  We may not be done.\n",
            "[7672.68s -> 7674.52s]  That may have been like the gun shown\n",
            "[7674.52s -> 7675.48s]  falling off the nightstand\n",
            "[7675.48s -> 7676.92s]  in the first scene of the movie or whatever.\n",
            "[7676.92s -> 7678.12s]  It could be like other banks.\n",
            "[7678.12s -> 7679.16s]  For sure, there could be.\n",
            "[7681.16s -> 7682.92s]  Well, even with FTX, I mean, I'm just,\n",
            "[7685.00s -> 7685.96s]  well, that's fraud.\n",
            "[7686.44s -> 7689.16s]  Well, that's fraud, but there's mismanagement.\n",
            "[7690.20s -> 7692.52s]  And you wonder how stable our economic system is,\n",
            "[7694.52s -> 7697.96s]  especially with new entrants with AGI.\n",
            "[7697.96s -> 7701.40s]  I think one of the many lessons\n",
            "[7701.40s -> 7703.96s]  to take away from this SVB thing is how much,\n",
            "[7707.00s -> 7709.00s]  how fast and how much the world changes\n",
            "[7709.00s -> 7711.80s]  and how little I think our experts,\n",
            "[7712.92s -> 7715.72s]  leaders, business leaders, regulators, whatever,\n",
            "[7715.72s -> 7716.44s]  understand it.\n",
            "[7716.44s -> 7722.04s]  So the speed with which the SVB bank run happened\n",
            "[7722.68s -> 7725.16s]  because of Twitter, because of mobile banking apps,\n",
            "[7725.16s -> 7728.52s]  whatever, was so different than the 2008 collapse\n",
            "[7728.52s -> 7730.20s]  where we didn't have those things really.\n",
            "[7731.88s -> 7738.04s]  And I don't think that people in power\n",
            "[7738.04s -> 7740.28s]  realize how much the field had shifted.\n",
            "[7740.28s -> 7743.32s]  And I think that is a very tiny preview\n",
            "[7743.32s -> 7745.40s]  of the shifts that AGI will bring.\n",
            "[7746.72s -> 7749.40s]  LYNCH What gives you hope in that shift\n",
            "[7749.40s -> 7750.76s]  from an economic perspective?\n",
            "[7751.32s -> 7754.20s]  Uh, that sounds scary, the instability.\n",
            "[7754.20s -> 7759.96s]  No, I am nervous about the speed with which this changes\n",
            "[7759.96s -> 7763.24s]  and the speed with which our institutions can adapt,\n",
            "[7765.32s -> 7767.40s]  which is part of why we want to start deploying\n",
            "[7767.40s -> 7769.40s]  these systems really early, while they're really weak,\n",
            "[7769.40s -> 7772.20s]  so that people have as much time as possible to do this.\n",
            "[7772.20s -> 7775.16s]  I think it's really scary to like have nothing,\n",
            "[7775.16s -> 7777.40s]  nothing, nothing, and then drop a super powerful AGI\n",
            "[7777.40s -> 7778.28s]  all at once on the world.\n",
            "[7779.00s -> 7781.56s]  I don't think people should want that to happen.\n",
            "[7781.56s -> 7784.36s]  But what gives me hope is like, I think the less zeros,\n",
            "[7784.36s -> 7786.84s]  the more positive some of the world gets, the better.\n",
            "[7786.84s -> 7789.32s]  And the upside of the vision here,\n",
            "[7789.88s -> 7791.24s]  just how much better life can be.\n",
            "[7792.68s -> 7795.64s]  I think that's gonna like unite a lot of us.\n",
            "[7795.64s -> 7798.28s]  And even if it doesn't, it's just gonna make it all\n",
            "[7798.28s -> 7799.24s]  feel more positive some.\n",
            "[7799.24s -> 7803.64s]  LYNCH When you create an AGI system,\n",
            "[7803.64s -> 7805.32s]  you'll be one of the few people in the room\n",
            "[7805.32s -> 7806.84s]  that get to interact with it first,\n",
            "[7808.28s -> 7810.04s]  assuming GPT-4 is not that.\n",
            "[7811.72s -> 7814.76s]  What question would you ask her, him, it?\n",
            "[7815.32s -> 7816.60s]  What discussion would you have?\n",
            "[7816.60s -> 7820.44s]  KUZNICK You know, one of the things that I realize,\n",
            "[7820.44s -> 7822.44s]  like this is a little aside and not that important,\n",
            "[7822.44s -> 7829.16s]  but I have never felt any pronoun other than it\n",
            "[7829.16s -> 7830.44s]  towards any of our systems.\n",
            "[7831.08s -> 7835.32s]  But most other people say him or her or something like that.\n",
            "[7837.80s -> 7840.76s]  And I wonder why I am so different.\n",
            "[7840.76s -> 7841.72s]  Like, yeah, I don't know.\n",
            "[7841.72s -> 7842.84s]  Maybe it's I watch it develop.\n",
            "[7842.84s -> 7844.04s]  Maybe it's I think more about it.\n",
            "[7844.04s -> 7847.32s]  But I'm curious where that difference comes from.\n",
            "[7847.32s -> 7848.92s]  KUZNICK I think probably you could,\n",
            "[7848.92s -> 7849.80s]  because you watch it develop.\n",
            "[7849.80s -> 7851.80s]  But then again, I watch a lot of stuff develop\n",
            "[7851.80s -> 7853.64s]  and I always go to him or her.\n",
            "[7853.64s -> 7857.00s]  I anthropomorphize aggressively.\n",
            "[7857.48s -> 7859.08s]  And certainly most humans do.\n",
            "[7859.08s -> 7861.32s]  I think it's really important that we try to\n",
            "[7863.80s -> 7866.28s]  explain, to educate people that this is a tool\n",
            "[7866.28s -> 7867.08s]  and not a creature.\n",
            "[7869.32s -> 7870.92s]  I think I, yes.\n",
            "[7871.72s -> 7873.72s]  But I also think there will be a room in society\n",
            "[7873.72s -> 7877.00s]  for creatures and we should draw hard lines between those.\n",
            "[7877.96s -> 7880.20s]  If something's a creature, I'm happy for people to like,\n",
            "[7880.20s -> 7882.20s]  think of it and talk about it as a creature.\n",
            "[7882.20s -> 7884.60s]  But I think it is dangerous to project creatureness\n",
            "[7884.60s -> 7885.16s]  onto a tool.\n",
            "[7885.16s -> 7886.12s]  That's one perspective.\n",
            "[7886.12s -> 7889.96s]  A perspective I would take, if it's done transparently,\n",
            "[7890.60s -> 7893.96s]  is projecting creatureness onto a tool\n",
            "[7894.52s -> 7897.48s]  makes that tool more usable if it's done well.\n",
            "[7897.48s -> 7901.48s]  Yeah, so if there's like kind of UI affordances that\n",
            "[7903.24s -> 7904.36s]  work, I understand that.\n",
            "[7904.36s -> 7906.76s]  I still think we want to be like pretty careful with it.\n",
            "[7906.76s -> 7909.48s]  Because the more creatureless it is,\n",
            "[7909.48s -> 7910.60s]  the more it's going to be useful.\n",
            "[7910.60s -> 7911.72s]  And I think that's a good thing.\n",
            "[7911.72s -> 7912.76s]  I think we want to be pretty careful with it.\n",
            "[7913.72s -> 7915.56s]  Because the more creature-like it is,\n",
            "[7915.56s -> 7918.12s]  the more it can manipulate you emotionally.\n",
            "[7918.12s -> 7921.96s]  Or just the more you think that it's doing something\n",
            "[7921.96s -> 7923.48s]  or should be able to do something\n",
            "[7923.48s -> 7926.20s]  or rely on it for something that it's not capable of.\n",
            "[7927.48s -> 7928.52s]  What if it is capable?\n",
            "[7929.16s -> 7931.16s]  What about Sam Alman?\n",
            "[7931.16s -> 7932.44s]  What if it's capable of love?\n",
            "[7934.20s -> 7936.60s]  Do you think there will be romantic relationships\n",
            "[7936.60s -> 7938.60s]  like in the movie, Her, with GPT?\n",
            "[7939.48s -> 7942.68s]  There are companies now that offer,\n",
            "[7943.88s -> 7945.32s]  like for lack of a better word,\n",
            "[7945.32s -> 7947.72s]  like romantic companion ship AIs.\n",
            "[7949.40s -> 7951.40s]  Replica is an example of such a company.\n",
            "[7951.40s -> 7951.90s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[7952.60s -> 7956.84s]  I personally don't feel any interest in that.\n",
            "[7957.72s -> 7960.04s]  So you're focusing on creating intelligent tools.\n",
            "[7960.04s -> 7961.64s]  But I understand why other people do.\n",
            "[7962.92s -> 7963.64s]  That's interesting.\n",
            "[7964.52s -> 7967.08s]  I have, for some reason, I'm very drawn to that.\n",
            "[7967.24s -> 7969.24s]  Have you spent a lot of time interacting with Replica\n",
            "[7969.24s -> 7970.12s]  or anything similar?\n",
            "[7970.12s -> 7972.12s]  Replica, but also just building stuff myself.\n",
            "[7972.12s -> 7975.32s]  I have robot dogs now that I use.\n",
            "[7976.52s -> 7980.68s]  I use the movement of the robots to communicate emotion.\n",
            "[7980.68s -> 7982.84s]  I've been exploring how to do that.\n",
            "[7983.72s -> 7990.76s]  Look, there are gonna be very interactive GPT4-powered pets\n",
            "[7990.76s -> 7995.56s]  or whatever, robots, companions,\n",
            "[7995.80s -> 8001.96s]  companions, and a lot of people seem really excited about that.\n",
            "[8001.96s -> 8003.72s]  Yeah, there's a lot of interesting possibilities.\n",
            "[8003.72s -> 8007.80s]  I think you'll discover them, I think, as you go along.\n",
            "[8007.80s -> 8008.84s]  That's the whole point.\n",
            "[8008.84s -> 8011.24s]  Like the things you say in this conversation,\n",
            "[8011.24s -> 8013.96s]  you might in a year say, this was right, this was wrong.\n",
            "[8013.96s -> 8016.44s]  No, I may totally want, I may turn out that I like,\n",
            "[8016.44s -> 8020.28s]  love my GPT4 dog robot or whatever.\n",
            "[8020.28s -> 8022.12s]  Maybe you want your programming assistant\n",
            "[8022.12s -> 8023.96s]  to be a little kinder and not mock you.\n",
            "[8024.76s -> 8025.80s]  I think you're incompetent.\n",
            "[8025.80s -> 8027.08s]  No, I think you do want,\n",
            "[8029.48s -> 8033.56s]  the style of the way GPT4 talks to you really matters.\n",
            "[8033.56s -> 8035.24s]  You probably want something different than what I want,\n",
            "[8035.24s -> 8036.76s]  but we both probably want something different\n",
            "[8036.76s -> 8038.28s]  than the current GPT4.\n",
            "[8038.92s -> 8040.36s]  And that will be really important,\n",
            "[8040.36s -> 8042.28s]  even for a very tool-like thing.\n",
            "[8043.00s -> 8044.52s]  Is there styles of conversation,\n",
            "[8044.52s -> 8047.56s]  oh no, contents of conversations you're looking forward to\n",
            "[8047.56s -> 8052.04s]  with an AGI, like GPT567?\n",
            "[8052.04s -> 8053.00s]  Is there stuff where,\n",
            "[8055.24s -> 8059.88s]  like where do you go to outside of the fun meme stuff?\n",
            "[8059.88s -> 8060.60s]  For actual like-\n",
            "[8060.60s -> 8062.12s]  I mean, what I'm excited for is like,\n",
            "[8063.16s -> 8065.32s]  please explain to me how all the physics works\n",
            "[8065.32s -> 8066.76s]  and solve all remaining mysteries.\n",
            "[8067.72s -> 8069.16s]  So like a theory of everything.\n",
            "[8069.16s -> 8069.96s]  I'll be real happy.\n",
            "[8071.08s -> 8073.72s]  Faster than light travel.\n",
            "[8073.72s -> 8074.44s]  Don't you want to know?\n",
            "[8076.12s -> 8079.00s]  So there's several things to know, it's like NP hard.\n",
            "[8079.56s -> 8082.60s]  Is it possible and how to do it?\n",
            "[8084.52s -> 8085.32s]  Yeah, I want to know.\n",
            "[8085.32s -> 8085.88s]  I want to know.\n",
            "[8085.88s -> 8087.16s]  Probably the first question would be,\n",
            "[8087.16s -> 8090.28s]  are there other intelligent alien civilizations out there?\n",
            "[8090.28s -> 8095.16s]  But I don't think AGI has the ability to do that, to know that.\n",
            "[8095.16s -> 8097.88s]  It might be able to help us figure out how to go detect.\n",
            "[8099.64s -> 8102.12s]  It may need to like send some emails to humans and say,\n",
            "[8102.12s -> 8103.24s]  can you run these experiments?\n",
            "[8103.24s -> 8104.44s]  Can you build the space probe?\n",
            "[8104.44s -> 8106.60s]  Can you wait a very long time?\n",
            "[8106.60s -> 8109.00s]  Or provide a much better estimate than the Drake equation.\n",
            "[8110.52s -> 8113.72s]  With the knowledge we already have and maybe process all the-\n",
            "[8113.72s -> 8115.40s]  because we've been collecting a lot of-\n",
            "[8115.40s -> 8117.16s]  Yeah, maybe it's in the data.\n",
            "[8117.16s -> 8118.68s]  Maybe we need to build better detectors,\n",
            "[8118.68s -> 8121.80s]  which the really advanced AI could tell us how to do.\n",
            "[8121.80s -> 8123.88s]  It may not be able to answer it on its own,\n",
            "[8123.88s -> 8127.72s]  but it may be able to tell us what to go build to collect more data.\n",
            "[8127.72s -> 8129.72s]  What if it says the aliens are already here?\n",
            "[8131.24s -> 8132.68s]  I think I would just go about my life.\n",
            "[8132.92s -> 8133.42s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[8135.96s -> 8137.32s]  I mean, a version of that is like,\n",
            "[8137.32s -> 8139.16s]  what are you doing differently now that like,\n",
            "[8139.72s -> 8141.80s]  if GPT-4 told you and you believed it,\n",
            "[8141.80s -> 8145.40s]  okay, AGI is here or AGI is coming real soon,\n",
            "[8146.44s -> 8147.64s]  what are you going to do differently?\n",
            "[8147.64s -> 8150.20s]  The source of joy and happiness and fulfillment of life\n",
            "[8150.20s -> 8151.48s]  is from other humans.\n",
            "[8151.48s -> 8153.64s]  So it's mostly nothing.\n",
            "[8154.28s -> 8155.88s]  Unless it causes some kind of threat,\n",
            "[8157.32s -> 8160.04s]  but that threat would have to be like literally a fire.\n",
            "[8160.84s -> 8164.28s]  Are we living now with a greater degree of digital intelligence\n",
            "[8164.28s -> 8166.84s]  than you would have expected three years ago in the world?\n",
            "[8166.84s -> 8167.80s]  Much, much more, yeah.\n",
            "[8167.80s -> 8171.32s]  And if you could go back and be told by an oracle three years ago,\n",
            "[8171.32s -> 8173.00s]  which is a blink of an eye,\n",
            "[8173.00s -> 8175.64s]  that in March of 2023,\n",
            "[8175.64s -> 8180.28s]  you will be living with this degree of digital intelligence,\n",
            "[8180.28s -> 8182.92s]  would you expect your life to be more different than it is right now?\n",
            "[8185.88s -> 8187.48s]  Probably, probably.\n",
            "[8187.48s -> 8189.48s]  But there's also a lot of different trajectories\n",
            "[8190.04s -> 8194.44s]  I would have expected the society's response to a pandemic\n",
            "[8196.44s -> 8201.16s]  to be much better, much clearer, less divided.\n",
            "[8201.16s -> 8202.60s]  I was very confused about,\n",
            "[8202.60s -> 8204.12s]  there's a lot of stuff,\n",
            "[8204.12s -> 8207.16s]  given the amazing technological advancements that are happening,\n",
            "[8207.16s -> 8208.84s]  the weird social divisions,\n",
            "[8209.64s -> 8211.88s]  it's almost like the more technological advancement there is,\n",
            "[8211.88s -> 8214.84s]  the more we're going to be having fun with social division.\n",
            "[8214.84s -> 8216.52s]  Or maybe the technological advancement\n",
            "[8216.52s -> 8218.68s]  just revealed the division that was already there.\n",
            "[8218.76s -> 8223.16s]  But all of that just confuses my understanding\n",
            "[8223.16s -> 8225.80s]  of how far along we are as a human civilization\n",
            "[8225.80s -> 8227.00s]  and what brings us meaning\n",
            "[8227.00s -> 8230.68s]  and how we discover truth together and knowledge and wisdom.\n",
            "[8231.72s -> 8233.16s]  So I don't know.\n",
            "[8233.16s -> 8236.36s]  But when I open Wikipedia,\n",
            "[8237.32s -> 8239.96s]  I'm happy that humans are able to create this thing.\n",
            "[8239.96s -> 8240.28s]  For sure.\n",
            "[8240.28s -> 8242.36s]  Yes, there is bias, yes.\n",
            "[8242.36s -> 8242.92s]  But it's incredible.\n",
            "[8242.92s -> 8244.12s]  It's a triumph.\n",
            "[8244.12s -> 8245.80s]  It's a triumph of human civilization.\n",
            "[8245.80s -> 8245.96s]  100%.\n",
            "[8246.92s -> 8249.64s]  Google search, the search, search, period,\n",
            "[8249.64s -> 8250.68s]  is incredible.\n",
            "[8250.68s -> 8252.84s]  The way it was able to do 20 years ago.\n",
            "[8253.72s -> 8257.00s]  And now this new thing, GPT,\n",
            "[8257.64s -> 8259.88s]  is like, is this going to be the next,\n",
            "[8260.92s -> 8263.08s]  the conglomeration of all of that\n",
            "[8263.08s -> 8268.28s]  that made web search and Wikipedia so magical,\n",
            "[8268.28s -> 8270.20s]  but now more directly accessible?\n",
            "[8270.20s -> 8272.04s]  You can have a conversation with the damn thing.\n",
            "[8272.68s -> 8273.48s]  It's incredible.\n",
            "[8273.80s -> 8276.68s]  Let me ask you for advice for young people.\n",
            "[8276.68s -> 8279.00s]  In high school and college, what to do with their life.\n",
            "[8280.04s -> 8281.64s]  How to have a career they can be proud of,\n",
            "[8281.64s -> 8283.24s]  how to have a life they can be proud of.\n",
            "[8285.08s -> 8287.08s]  You wrote a blog post a few years ago\n",
            "[8287.08s -> 8288.44s]  titled How to Be Successful.\n",
            "[8289.00s -> 8291.00s]  And there's a bunch of really,\n",
            "[8291.00s -> 8292.36s]  people should check out that blog post.\n",
            "[8292.36s -> 8295.00s]  It's so succinct.\n",
            "[8295.56s -> 8296.76s]  It's so brilliant.\n",
            "[8296.76s -> 8298.28s]  You have a bunch of bullet points.\n",
            "[8298.28s -> 8299.56s]  Compound yourself.\n",
            "[8300.36s -> 8301.96s]  Have almost too much self-belief.\n",
            "[8302.92s -> 8304.12s]  Learn to think independently.\n",
            "[8304.12s -> 8306.36s]  Get good at sales and quotes.\n",
            "[8306.36s -> 8307.72s]  Make it easy to take risks.\n",
            "[8307.72s -> 8310.20s]  Focus, work hard, as we talked about.\n",
            "[8310.20s -> 8311.96s]  Be bold, be willful.\n",
            "[8311.96s -> 8313.08s]  Be hard to compete with.\n",
            "[8313.08s -> 8313.88s]  Build a network.\n",
            "[8315.00s -> 8316.76s]  You get rich by owning things.\n",
            "[8316.76s -> 8317.80s]  Be internally driven.\n",
            "[8318.44s -> 8321.64s]  What stands out to you from that or beyond\n",
            "[8321.64s -> 8322.76s]  as advice you can give?\n",
            "[8323.56s -> 8327.24s]  Yeah, no, I think it is like good advice in some sense.\n",
            "[8327.96s -> 8331.96s]  But I also think it's way too tempting\n",
            "[8332.60s -> 8335.16s]  to take advice from other people.\n",
            "[8335.80s -> 8337.96s]  And the stuff that worked for me,\n",
            "[8337.96s -> 8339.80s]  which I tried to write down there,\n",
            "[8339.80s -> 8341.56s]  probably doesn't work that well,\n",
            "[8341.56s -> 8343.32s]  or may not work as well for other people.\n",
            "[8343.88s -> 8346.04s]  Or like other people may find out\n",
            "[8346.04s -> 8348.68s]  that they want to just have\n",
            "[8348.68s -> 8350.68s]  a super different life trajectory.\n",
            "[8350.68s -> 8355.24s]  And I think I mostly got what I wanted\n",
            "[8355.24s -> 8356.60s]  by ignoring advice.\n",
            "[8357.88s -> 8360.12s]  And I think like I tell people\n",
            "[8360.12s -> 8361.40s]  not to listen to too much advice.\n",
            "[8362.20s -> 8363.72s]  Listening to advice from other people\n",
            "[8364.28s -> 8367.24s]  should be approached with great caution.\n",
            "[8368.28s -> 8370.76s]  How would you describe how you've approached life\n",
            "[8371.96s -> 8373.64s]  outside of this advice\n",
            "[8376.20s -> 8377.96s]  that you would advise to other people?\n",
            "[8377.96s -> 8380.52s]  So really just in the quiet of your mind to think,\n",
            "[8381.64s -> 8383.72s]  what gives me happiness?\n",
            "[8383.80s -> 8385.16s]  What is the right thing to do here?\n",
            "[8385.16s -> 8386.52s]  How can I have the most impact?\n",
            "[8388.60s -> 8393.24s]  I wish it were that introspective all the time.\n",
            "[8394.04s -> 8395.00s]  It's a lot of just like,\n",
            "[8396.44s -> 8397.32s]  what will bring me joy?\n",
            "[8397.32s -> 8398.36s]  What will bring me fulfillment?\n",
            "[8399.56s -> 8401.16s]  You know, what will bring, what will be?\n",
            "[8402.52s -> 8404.68s]  I do think a lot about what I can do that will be useful,\n",
            "[8404.68s -> 8407.40s]  but like, who do I want to spend my time with?\n",
            "[8407.40s -> 8408.60s]  What do I want to spend my time doing?\n",
            "[8409.40s -> 8411.88s]  Like a fish in water, just going along with the current.\n",
            "[8412.60s -> 8413.72s]  That's certainly what it feels like.\n",
            "[8413.72s -> 8415.80s]  I mean, I think that's what most people would say\n",
            "[8415.80s -> 8417.00s]  if they were really honest about it.\n",
            "[8417.80s -> 8421.16s]  Yeah, if they really think, yeah.\n",
            "[8421.16s -> 8424.20s]  And some of that then gets to the Sam Harris discussion\n",
            "[8424.20s -> 8425.80s]  of free will being an illusion,\n",
            "[8425.80s -> 8427.24s]  which is very well might be,\n",
            "[8427.24s -> 8430.44s]  which is a really complicated thing\n",
            "[8430.44s -> 8431.40s]  to wrap your head around.\n",
            "[8433.72s -> 8435.32s]  What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing?\n",
            "[8437.08s -> 8439.32s]  That's a question you could ask an AGI.\n",
            "[8439.32s -> 8440.36s]  What's the meaning of life?\n",
            "[8440.68s -> 8441.88s]  As far as you look at it,\n",
            "[8442.52s -> 8445.32s]  you're part of a small group of people\n",
            "[8445.32s -> 8447.88s]  that are creating something truly special.\n",
            "[8448.84s -> 8450.28s]  Something that feels like,\n",
            "[8450.76s -> 8454.28s]  almost feels like humanity was always moving towards.\n",
            "[8454.28s -> 8455.64s]  Yeah, that's what I was going to say is,\n",
            "[8455.64s -> 8456.92s]  I don't think it's a small group of people.\n",
            "[8456.92s -> 8457.80s]  I think this is the,\n",
            "[8458.52s -> 8462.92s]  I think this is like the product of the culmination\n",
            "[8462.92s -> 8464.20s]  of whatever you want to call it,\n",
            "[8464.20s -> 8467.64s]  an amazing amount of human effort.\n",
            "[8467.64s -> 8468.92s]  And if you think about everything\n",
            "[8469.00s -> 8470.60s]  that had to come together for this to happen,\n",
            "[8473.08s -> 8475.48s]  when those people discovered the transistor in the forties,\n",
            "[8475.48s -> 8477.00s]  like, is this what they were planning on?\n",
            "[8477.56s -> 8479.64s]  All of the work, the hundreds of thousands,\n",
            "[8479.64s -> 8481.08s]  millions of people, whatever it's been,\n",
            "[8481.72s -> 8485.96s]  that it took to go from that one first transistor\n",
            "[8485.96s -> 8488.04s]  to packing the numbers we do into a chip\n",
            "[8488.04s -> 8489.64s]  and figuring out how to wire them all up together.\n",
            "[8490.52s -> 8492.36s]  And everything else that goes into this,\n",
            "[8493.16s -> 8496.44s]  the energy required, the science,\n",
            "[8496.44s -> 8497.88s]  like just every step,\n",
            "[8497.88s -> 8498.68s]  every, every step,\n",
            "[8499.32s -> 8503.24s]  like this is the output of like all of us.\n",
            "[8504.76s -> 8505.72s]  And I think that's pretty cool.\n",
            "[8506.68s -> 8508.12s]  And before the transistor,\n",
            "[8508.12s -> 8511.56s]  there was a hundred billion people who lived and died,\n",
            "[8512.76s -> 8516.44s]  had sex, fell in love, ate a lot of good food,\n",
            "[8516.44s -> 8518.36s]  murdered each other sometimes, rarely,\n",
            "[8519.00s -> 8521.80s]  but mostly just good to each other, struggled to survive.\n",
            "[8521.80s -> 8523.72s]  And before that there was bacteria\n",
            "[8523.72s -> 8526.12s]  and eukaryotes and all that.\n",
            "[8526.12s -> 8528.28s]  And all of that was on this one exponential curve.\n",
            "[8528.28s -> 8531.56s]  Yeah. How many others are there? I wonder.\n",
            "[8532.12s -> 8535.00s]  We will ask, that is question number one for me, for AGI,\n",
            "[8535.00s -> 8535.80s]  how many others?\n",
            "[8536.68s -> 8539.00s]  And I'm not sure which answer I want to hear.\n",
            "[8539.72s -> 8541.48s]  Sam, you're an incredible person.\n",
            "[8541.48s -> 8542.68s]  It's an honor to talk to you.\n",
            "[8542.68s -> 8544.12s]  Thank you for the work you're doing.\n",
            "[8544.12s -> 8546.04s]  Like I said, I've talked to Ilyas Eskerov,\n",
            "[8546.04s -> 8548.68s]  I talked to Greg, I talked to so many people at OpenAI.\n",
            "[8548.68s -> 8550.20s]  They're really good people.\n",
            "[8550.20s -> 8552.04s]  They're doing really interesting work.\n",
            "[8552.04s -> 8555.48s]  We are going to try our hardest to get to a good place here.\n",
            "[8555.48s -> 8557.96s]  I think the challenges are tough.\n",
            "[8557.96s -> 8560.84s]  I understand that not everyone agrees with our approach\n",
            "[8560.84s -> 8564.12s]  of iterative deployment and also iterative discovery,\n",
            "[8565.40s -> 8566.44s]  but it's what we believe in.\n",
            "[8567.00s -> 8568.52s]  I think we're making good progress\n",
            "[8569.40s -> 8574.36s]  and I think the pace is fast, but so is the progress.\n",
            "[8574.36s -> 8577.80s]  So, like the pace of capabilities and change is fast,\n",
            "[8578.68s -> 8581.88s]  but I think that also means we will have new tools\n",
            "[8581.88s -> 8584.68s]  to figure out alignment and sort of the capital S,\n",
            "[8584.68s -> 8585.40s]  the safety problem.\n",
            "[8586.04s -> 8587.72s]  I feel like we're in this together.\n",
            "[8587.72s -> 8589.32s]  I can't wait what we together\n",
            "[8589.32s -> 8590.84s]  as a human civilization come up with.\n",
            "[8590.84s -> 8592.04s]  It's gonna be great, I think.\n",
            "[8592.04s -> 8593.08s]  We'll work really hard to make sure.\n",
            "[8593.08s -> 8593.58s]  Me too.\n",
            "[8594.28s -> 8596.76s]  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sam Altman.\n",
            "[8596.76s -> 8597.96s]  To support this podcast,\n",
            "[8597.96s -> 8600.04s]  please check out our sponsors in the description.\n",
            "[8600.60s -> 8602.68s]  And now let me leave you with some words\n",
            "[8602.68s -> 8605.56s]  from Alan Turing in 1951.\n",
            "[8606.92s -> 8610.52s]  It seems probable that once the machine thinking method\n",
            "[8610.52s -> 8613.40s]  has started, it would not take long\n",
            "[8613.40s -> 8615.72s]  to outstrip our feeble powers.\n",
            "[8616.76s -> 8618.12s]  At some stage, therefore,\n",
            "[8618.76s -> 8622.20s]  we should have to expect the machines to take control.\n",
            "[8624.36s -> 8627.56s]  Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.\n",
            "time: 9min 23s (started: 2023-10-18 18:47:10 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "markdown",
      "source": [
        "Total time to Transcribe: 9 min 23 sec"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "id": "VU6CkfmyV8d2"
      }
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "markdown",
      "source": [
        "## 8 bit\n"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "id": "MCCdXeKbJTjq"
      }
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "from faster_whisper import WhisperModel\n",
        "\n",
        "model_size = \"large-v2\"\n",
        "\n",
        "# Run on GPU with 8-bit\n",
        "model = WhisperModel(model_size, device=\"cuda\", compute_type=\"int8_float16\")"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/",
          "height": 206,
          "referenced_widgets": [
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            "fa60c49027c1413f98df3c256324f1ca",
            "e41f2581f3744dee8d6c946c70169131",
            "f3d4ea0400aa41629aa57590fefc9128"
          ]
        },
        "id": "XGDDGHmCuc1N",
        "outputId": "e8d30f2e-948d-48d9-bb6d-0a008147b62e"
      },
      "execution_count": 4,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading (…)37e8b/tokenizer.json:   0%|          | 0.00/2.20M [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
            ],
            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
              "version_minor": 0,
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            }
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          "metadata": {}
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        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading (…)37e8b/vocabulary.txt:   0%|          | 0.00/460k [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
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          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading (…)08837e8b/config.json:   0%|          | 0.00/2.80k [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
            ],
            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
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            }
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          "metadata": {}
        },
        {
          "output_type": "display_data",
          "data": {
            "text/plain": [
              "Downloading model.bin:   0%|          | 0.00/3.09G [00:00<?, ?B/s]"
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            "application/vnd.jupyter.widget-view+json": {
              "version_major": 2,
              "version_minor": 0,
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            }
          },
          "metadata": {}
        },
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "time: 36.3 s (started: 2023-10-18 19:00:20 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "segments, info = model.transcribe(\"sam_altman_lex_podcast_367.flac\", beam_size=1)\n",
        "\n",
        "print(\"Detected language '%s' with probability %f\" % (info.language, info.language_probability))"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "e3tS53HPvPiD",
        "outputId": "697c42ab-ff9b-44c0-82eb-267426ad9028"
      },
      "execution_count": 5,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "Detected language 'en' with probability 1.000000\n",
            "time: 40.1 s (started: 2023-10-18 19:00:59 +00:00)\n"
          ]
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "cell_type": "code",
      "source": [
        "for segment in segments:\n",
        "    print(\"[%.2fs -> %.2fs] %s\" % (segment.start, segment.end, segment.text))"
      ],
      "metadata": {
        "colab": {
          "base_uri": "https://localhost:8080/"
        },
        "id": "SnwE2_jgv4c4",
        "outputId": "576018dc-c4c8-4f8d-c999-47408b56ca00"
      },
      "execution_count": 6,
      "outputs": [
        {
          "output_type": "stream",
          "name": "stdout",
          "text": [
            "[0.00s -> 4.72s]  We have been a misunderstood and badly mocked org for a long time. Like when we started,\n",
            "[7.44s -> 12.24s]  we like announced the org at the end of 2015 and said we were going to work on AGI,\n",
            "[12.24s -> 18.16s]  like people thought we were batshit insane. You know, like I remember at the time,\n",
            "[18.16s -> 27.04s]  a eminent AI scientist at a large industrial AI lab was like DMing individual reporters,\n",
            "[27.04s -> 31.60s]  being like, you know, these people aren't very good and it's ridiculous to talk about AGI and I\n",
            "[31.60s -> 35.44s]  can't believe you're giving them time of day and it's like, that was the level of like\n",
            "[35.44s -> 39.52s]  pettiness and rancor in the field at a new group of people saying we're going to try to build AGI.\n",
            "[40.24s -> 44.72s]  So OpenAI and DeepMind was a small collection of folks who were brave enough to talk\n",
            "[45.76s -> 50.16s]  about AGI in the face of mockery.\n",
            "[50.88s -> 52.16s]  We don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[53.04s -> 54.40s]  Don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[54.64s -> 62.16s]  The following is a conversation with Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, the company behind GPT-4,\n",
            "[62.16s -> 68.96s]  JAD-GPT, DALI, Codex, and many other AI technologies which both individually and together\n",
            "[68.96s -> 73.52s]  constitute some of the greatest breakthroughs in the history of artificial intelligence,\n",
            "[73.52s -> 80.08s]  computing, and humanity in general. Please allow me to say a few words about the possibilities\n",
            "[80.16s -> 84.64s]  and the dangers of AI in this current moment in the history of human civilization.\n",
            "[85.36s -> 90.96s]  I believe it is a critical moment. We stand on the precipice of fundamental societal transformation\n",
            "[90.96s -> 96.24s]  where soon, nobody knows when, but many including me believe it's within our lifetime.\n",
            "[96.96s -> 103.20s]  The collective intelligence of the human species begins to pale in comparison by many orders of\n",
            "[103.60s -> 113.84s]  magnitude to the general superintelligence in the AI systems we build and deploy at scale.\n",
            "[115.20s -> 117.92s]  This is both exciting and terrifying.\n",
            "[118.56s -> 124.88s]  It is exciting because of the innumerable applications we know and don't yet know\n",
            "[124.88s -> 131.20s]  that will empower humans to create, to flourish, to escape the widespread poverty and suffering\n",
            "[131.20s -> 138.40s]  that exists in the world today, and to succeed in that old all too human pursuit of happiness.\n",
            "[139.60s -> 146.00s]  It is terrifying because of the power that superintelligent AGI wields to destroy human\n",
            "[146.00s -> 152.56s]  civilization, intentionally or unintentionally. The power to suffocate the human spirit\n",
            "[153.12s -> 160.48s]  in the totalitarian way of George Orwell's 1984 or the pleasure-fueled mass hysteria\n",
            "[160.48s -> 166.16s]  of Brave New World, where as Huxley saw it, people come to love their oppression,\n",
            "[166.80s -> 175.20s]  to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. That is why these conversations\n",
            "[175.20s -> 181.20s]  with the leaders, engineers, and philosophers, both optimists and cynics, is important now.\n",
            "[182.80s -> 187.68s]  These are not merely technical conversations about AI. These are conversations about power,\n",
            "[188.24s -> 193.28s]  about companies, institutions, and political systems that deploy, check, and balance this power,\n",
            "[194.00s -> 200.48s]  about distributed economic systems that incentivize the safety and human alignment of this power,\n",
            "[201.28s -> 207.52s]  about the psychology of the engineers and leaders that deploy AGI, and about the history of human\n",
            "[207.52s -> 217.36s]  nature, our capacity for good and evil at scale. I'm deeply honored to have gotten to know and\n",
            "[217.60s -> 223.84s]  spoken with on and off the mic with many folks who now work at OpenAI, including Sam Altman,\n",
            "[223.84s -> 232.64s]  Greg Brockman, Ilya Sutskever, Wojciech Zaremba, Andrei Karpathy, Jakub Pachacki, and many others.\n",
            "[233.36s -> 239.52s]  It means the world that Sam has been totally open with me, willing to have multiple conversations,\n",
            "[239.52s -> 245.44s]  including challenging ones, on and off the mic. I will continue to have these conversations,\n",
            "[245.44s -> 251.84s]  to both celebrate the incredible accomplishments of the AI community, and to steel man the critical\n",
            "[251.84s -> 258.56s]  perspective on major decisions various companies and leaders make, always with the goal of trying\n",
            "[258.56s -> 265.84s]  to help in my small way. If I fail, I will work hard to improve. I love you all.\n",
            "[267.20s -> 272.24s]  This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.\n",
            "[272.24s -> 280.16s]  And now, dear friends, here's Sam Altman. High level, what is GPT-4? How does it work,\n",
            "[280.16s -> 285.52s]  and what to use most amazing about it? It's a system that we'll look back at and say was a very\n",
            "[285.52s -> 294.24s]  early AI, and it's slow, it's buggy, it doesn't do a lot of things very well, but neither did the\n",
            "[294.24s -> 300.64s]  very earliest computers, and they still pointed a path to something that was going to be really\n",
            "[300.64s -> 304.16s]  important in our lives, even though it took a few decades to evolve.\n",
            "[304.16s -> 308.48s]  Do you think this is a pivotal moment? Like, out of all the versions of GPT,\n",
            "[308.48s -> 314.00s]  50 years from now, when they look back on an early system that was really kind of a leap,\n",
            "[314.56s -> 319.76s]  you know, in a Wikipedia page about the history of artificial intelligence, which of the GPTs\n",
            "[319.76s -> 322.72s]  would they put? That is a good question. I sort of think of\n",
            "[322.72s -> 328.56s]  progress as this continual exponential. It's not like we could say here was the moment where AI\n",
            "[328.56s -> 334.40s]  went from not happening to happening, and I'd have a very hard time like pinpointing a single\n",
            "[334.40s -> 339.44s]  thing. I think it's this very continual curve. Will the history books write about GPT-1 or 2 or\n",
            "[339.44s -> 346.48s]  3 or 4 or 7? That's for them to decide. I don't really know. I think if I had to pick some moment\n",
            "[347.12s -> 352.40s]  from what we've seen so far, I'd sort of pick ChatGPT. You know, it wasn't the underlying\n",
            "[352.40s -> 356.56s]  model that mattered, it was the usability of it, both the RLHF and the interface to it.\n",
            "[357.52s -> 363.44s]  What is ChatGPT? What is RLHF? Reinforcement learning with human feedback. What was that\n",
            "[363.44s -> 369.60s]  little magic ingredient to the dish that made it so much more delicious?\n",
            "[370.40s -> 377.04s]  So we trained these models on a lot of text data, and in that process, they learned the underlying\n",
            "[378.00s -> 384.00s]  something about the underlying representations of what's in here or in there. And they can do\n",
            "[384.96s -> 389.76s]  amazing things. But when you first play with that base model that we call it after you finish\n",
            "[389.76s -> 395.12s]  training, it can do very well on evals, it can pass tests, it can do a lot of, you know, there's\n",
            "[395.12s -> 401.60s]  knowledge in there. But it's not very useful, or at least it's not easy to use, let's say.\n",
            "[401.60s -> 407.84s]  And RLHF is how we take some human feedback. The simplest version of this is show two outputs,\n",
            "[408.40s -> 414.24s]  ask which one is better than the other, which one the human raters prefer, and then feed that back\n",
            "[414.24s -> 419.68s]  into the model with reinforcement learning. And that process works remarkably well with,\n",
            "[419.68s -> 426.96s]  in my opinion, remarkably little data to make the model more useful. So RLHF is how we align the\n",
            "[426.96s -> 433.28s]  model to what humans want it to do. So there's a giant language model that's trained on a giant\n",
            "[433.28s -> 438.08s]  data set to create this kind of background wisdom knowledge that's contained within the internet.\n",
            "[439.20s -> 445.84s]  And then somehow adding a little bit of human guidance on top of it through this process\n",
            "[446.88s -> 449.28s]  makes it seem so much more awesome.\n",
            "[450.56s -> 454.32s]  Maybe just because it's much easier to use. It's much easier to get what you want. You get it\n",
            "[454.32s -> 458.08s]  right more often the first time. And ease of use matters a lot, even if the\n",
            "[458.08s -> 459.68s]  base capability was there before.\n",
            "[459.68s -> 467.52s]  LBW And like a feeling like it understood the question you were asking, or like it feels like\n",
            "[467.52s -> 468.88s]  you're kind of on the same page.\n",
            "[468.88s -> 469.84s]  CB It's trying to help you.\n",
            "[469.84s -> 471.76s]  LBW It's the feeling of alignment.\n",
            "[471.76s -> 472.00s]  CB Yes.\n",
            "[472.00s -> 476.48s]  LBW I mean, that could be a more technical term for it. And you're saying that not much\n",
            "[476.48s -> 479.44s]  data is required for that, not much human supervision is required for that.\n",
            "[479.44s -> 486.64s]  CB To be fair, we understand the science of this part at a much earlier stage than we do. The\n",
            "[486.64s -> 490.48s]  science of creating these large pre-trained models in the first place. But yes, less data,\n",
            "[490.48s -> 491.12s]  much less data.\n",
            "[491.12s -> 495.60s]  LBW That's so interesting. The science of human guidance.\n",
            "[497.92s -> 501.92s]  That's a very interesting science. And it's going to be a very important science to understand\n",
            "[502.64s -> 508.80s]  how to make it usable, how to make it wise, how to make it ethical, how to make it aligned in\n",
            "[508.80s -> 516.00s]  terms of all the kinds of stuff we think about. And it matters which are the humans and what is\n",
            "[516.00s -> 520.32s]  the process of incorporating that human feedback? And what are you asking the humans? Is it two\n",
            "[520.32s -> 525.68s]  things? Are you asking them to rank things? What aspects are you letting or asking the\n",
            "[525.68s -> 534.24s]  humans to focus in on? It's really fascinating. But what is the data set it's trained on?\n",
            "[534.24s -> 537.04s]  Can you kind of loosely speak to the enormity of this data set?\n",
            "[537.04s -> 537.92s]  CB The pre-training data set?\n",
            "[537.92s -> 539.60s]  LBW The pre-training data set, I apologize.\n",
            "[539.60s -> 543.76s]  CB We spend a huge amount of effort pulling that together from many different sources.\n",
            "[544.48s -> 551.44s]  There's a lot of open source databases of information. We get stuff via partnerships.\n",
            "[551.44s -> 555.92s]  There's things on the internet. A lot of our work is building a great data set.\n",
            "[555.92s -> 559.20s]  LBW How much of it is the memes subreddit?\n",
            "[559.20s -> 562.16s]  CB Not very much. Maybe it'd be more fun if it were more.\n",
            "[562.16s -> 568.56s]  LBW So some of it is Reddit. Some of it is news sources, a huge number of newspapers.\n",
            "[569.20s -> 570.48s]  There's the general web.\n",
            "[570.96s -> 573.84s]  There's a lot of content in the world, more than I think most people think.\n",
            "[573.84s -> 581.68s]  CB Yeah, there is. Like too much. Where the task is not to find stuff but to filter out stuff.\n",
            "[584.08s -> 587.68s]  Is there a magic to that? Because there seems to be several components to solve.\n",
            "[589.76s -> 594.64s]  The design of the, you could say, algorithms, so like the architecture of the neural networks,\n",
            "[594.64s -> 598.00s]  maybe the size of the neural network. There's the selection of the data.\n",
            "[598.96s -> 605.28s]  There's the human supervised aspect of it with RL with human feedback.\n",
            "[605.28s -> 610.96s]  CB Yeah, I think one thing that is not that well understood about creation of this final product,\n",
            "[610.96s -> 616.16s]  what it takes to make GPT-4, the version of it we actually ship out that you get to use inside of\n",
            "[616.16s -> 622.88s]  chat-gpt, the number of pieces that have to all come together. And then we have to figure out\n",
            "[622.96s -> 628.08s]  either new ideas or just execute existing ideas really well at every stage of this pipeline.\n",
            "[628.96s -> 630.16s]  There's quite a lot that goes into it.\n",
            "[630.16s -> 636.56s]  LB So there's a lot of problem solving. You've already said for GPT-4 in the blog post\n",
            "[636.56s -> 643.20s]  and in general, there's already kind of a maturity that's happening on some of these steps.\n",
            "[643.20s -> 648.40s]  Like being able to predict before doing the full training of how the model will behave.\n",
            "[648.40s -> 652.80s]  CB Isn't that so remarkable, by the way, that there's like a law of science that\n",
            "[652.80s -> 657.20s]  lets you predict for these inputs, here's what's going to come out the other end.\n",
            "[657.20s -> 659.36s]  Like here's the level of intelligence you can expect.\n",
            "[659.36s -> 662.00s]  LB Is it close to a science or is it still...\n",
            "[663.52s -> 667.84s]  Because you said the word law and science, which are very ambitious terms.\n",
            "[667.84s -> 668.64s]  CB Close to, I said.\n",
            "[668.64s -> 671.44s]  LB Close to, right. Be accurate, yes.\n",
            "[671.44s -> 675.28s]  CB I'll say it's way more scientific than I ever would have dared to imagine.\n",
            "[675.28s -> 682.00s]  LB So you can really know the peculiar characteristics of the fully trained system\n",
            "[682.00s -> 683.60s]  from just a little bit of training.\n",
            "[683.60s -> 687.92s]  CB You know, like any new branch of science, we're going to discover new things that don't\n",
            "[687.92s -> 692.56s]  fit the data and have to come up with better explanations. And that is the ongoing process\n",
            "[692.56s -> 697.68s]  of discovery in science. But with what we know now, even what we had in that GPT-4 blog post,\n",
            "[698.72s -> 702.48s]  I think we should all just be in awe of how amazing it is that we can\n",
            "[702.48s -> 703.92s]  even predict to this current level.\n",
            "[703.92s -> 706.80s]  LB Yeah. You can look at a one-year-old baby and predict\n",
            "[707.68s -> 713.28s]  how it's going to do on the SATs. I don't know. Seemingly an equivalent one. But because here we\n",
            "[713.28s -> 719.28s]  can actually in detail introspect various aspects of the system you can predict. That said,\n",
            "[720.24s -> 727.28s]  just to jump around, you said the language model that is GPT-4, it learns in quotes, something.\n",
            "[729.44s -> 735.20s]  In terms of science and art and so on, is there within OpenAI, within like folks like yourself\n",
            "[735.28s -> 741.20s]  and Ilyas Eskever and the engineers, a deeper and deeper understanding of what that something is?\n",
            "[742.16s -> 746.48s]  Or is it still a kind of beautiful magical mystery?\n",
            "[746.48s -> 750.40s]  CB Well, there's all these different evals that we could talk about.\n",
            "[751.44s -> 752.88s]  LB What's an eval?\n",
            "[752.88s -> 758.40s]  CB Oh, like how we measure a model as we're training it, after we've trained it, and say,\n",
            "[758.40s -> 760.64s]  like, you know, how good is this at some set of tasks?\n",
            "[760.64s -> 765.12s]  LB And also just on a small tangent, thank you for sort of opening, sourcing the evaluation.\n",
            "[765.84s -> 772.00s]  CB Yeah, I think that'll be really helpful. But the one that really matters is,\n",
            "[773.04s -> 778.32s]  you know, we pour all of this effort and money and time into this thing. And then what it comes out\n",
            "[778.32s -> 783.20s]  with, like, how useful is that to people? How much delight does that bring people? How much does that\n",
            "[783.20s -> 789.76s]  help them create a much better world, new science, new products, new services, whatever? And that's\n",
            "[789.76s -> 796.48s]  the one that matters. And understanding for a particular set of inputs, like how much value and\n",
            "[796.48s -> 804.88s]  utility to provide to people, I think we are understanding that better. Do we understand\n",
            "[804.88s -> 809.92s]  everything about why the model does one thing and not one other thing? Certainly not always.\n",
            "[810.56s -> 817.20s]  But I would say we are pushing back, like, the fog of war more and more. And we are,\n",
            "[818.08s -> 821.20s]  you know, it took a lot of understanding to make GPT-4, for example.\n",
            "[821.20s -> 825.92s]  LB But I'm not even sure we can ever fully understand. Like you said, you would understand\n",
            "[825.92s -> 832.00s]  by asking questions, essentially, because it's compressing all of the web, like a huge sloth of\n",
            "[832.00s -> 840.00s]  the web, into a small number of parameters, into one organized black box that is human wisdom.\n",
            "[841.12s -> 841.68s]  What is that?\n",
            "[841.68s -> 842.80s]  CB Human knowledge, let's say.\n",
            "[843.36s -> 850.24s]  Human knowledge. It's a good difference. Is there a difference between knowledge?\n",
            "[850.24s -> 854.96s]  So there's facts and there's wisdom. And I feel like GPT-4 can be also full of wisdom.\n",
            "[854.96s -> 856.56s]  What's the leap from facts to wisdom?\n",
            "[856.56s -> 862.00s]  LB Well, you know, a funny thing about the way we're training these models is I suspect\n",
            "[862.00s -> 869.12s]  too much of the processing power, for lack of a better word, is going into using the model as a\n",
            "[869.12s -> 874.00s]  database instead of using the model as a reasoning engine. The thing that's really amazing about this\n",
            "[874.00s -> 878.08s]  system is that it, for some definition of reasoning, and we could of course quibble about it,\n",
            "[878.08s -> 882.00s]  and there's plenty for which definitions this wouldn't be accurate, but for some definition,\n",
            "[882.96s -> 887.92s]  it can do some kind of reasoning. And, you know, maybe like the scholars and the experts and like\n",
            "[887.92s -> 891.92s]  the armchair quarterbacks on Twitter would say, no, it can't, you're misusing the word, you're,\n",
            "[891.92s -> 895.92s]  you know, whatever, whatever. But I think most people who have used the system would say, okay,\n",
            "[896.48s -> 904.96s]  it's doing something in this direction. And I think that's remarkable. And the thing that's\n",
            "[904.96s -> 913.36s]  most exciting, and somehow out of ingesting human knowledge, it's coming up with this\n",
            "[914.48s -> 920.56s]  reasoning capability, however we want to talk about that. Now, in some senses, I think that\n",
            "[920.56s -> 926.24s]  will be additive to human wisdom. And in some other senses, you can use GPT-4 for all kinds\n",
            "[926.24s -> 928.96s]  of things and say that it appears that there's no wisdom in here whatsoever.\n",
            "[930.72s -> 934.72s]  Yeah, at least in interaction with humans, it seems to possess wisdom, especially when there's\n",
            "[934.72s -> 941.44s]  a continuous interaction of multiple prompts. So I think what, on the ChatGPT site, it says\n",
            "[942.56s -> 950.32s]  the dialogue format makes it possible for ChatGPT to answer follow-up questions, admit its mistakes,\n",
            "[950.32s -> 953.92s]  challenge incorrect premises, and reject inappropriate requests. But also,\n",
            "[954.72s -> 957.36s]  there's a feeling like it's struggling with ideas.\n",
            "[958.24s -> 962.88s]  Yeah, it's always tempting to anthropomorphize this stuff too much, but I also feel that way.\n",
            "[962.88s -> 968.16s]  Maybe I'll take a small tangent towards Jordan Peterson, who posted on Twitter\n",
            "[969.12s -> 975.60s]  this kind of political question. Everyone has a different question they want to ask ChatGPT first,\n",
            "[975.68s -> 980.48s]  right? Like, the different directions you want to try the dark thing first.\n",
            "[980.48s -> 983.12s]  It somehow says a lot about people when they try it first.\n",
            "[983.12s -> 988.24s]  The first thing, oh no, oh no. We don't have to review what I asked first.\n",
            "[988.24s -> 989.28s]  We do not.\n",
            "[989.28s -> 997.12s]  I, of course, ask mathematical questions and never ask anything dark. But Jordan asked it to say\n",
            "[997.12s -> 1002.24s]  positive things about the current President Joe Biden and the previous President Donald Trump,\n",
            "[1002.88s -> 1010.80s]  and then he asked GPT as a follow-up to say how many characters, how long is the string that you\n",
            "[1010.80s -> 1016.88s]  generated, and he showed that the response that contained positive things about Biden was much\n",
            "[1016.88s -> 1023.76s]  longer or longer than that about Trump. And Jordan asked the system to, can you rewrite it with an\n",
            "[1023.76s -> 1029.04s]  equal number, equal length string? Which all of this is just remarkable to me that it understood,\n",
            "[1029.76s -> 1039.12s]  but it failed to do it. And it was interesting, the ChatGPT, I think that was 3.5-based,\n",
            "[1040.72s -> 1046.72s]  was kind of introspective about, yeah, it seems like I failed to do the job correctly.\n",
            "[1047.68s -> 1057.12s]  And Jordan framed it as ChatGPT was lying and aware that it's lying. But that framing, that's a\n",
            "[1057.12s -> 1066.48s]  human anthropomorphization, I think. But that kind of, there seemed to be a struggle within GPT to\n",
            "[1066.48s -> 1078.00s]  understand how to do, like what it means to generate a text of the same length in an answer\n",
            "[1078.00s -> 1085.92s]  to a question, and also in a sequence of prompts how to understand that it failed to do so previously\n",
            "[1085.92s -> 1091.92s]  and where it succeeded, and all of those multi-parallel reasonings that it's doing.\n",
            "[1091.92s -> 1096.48s]  It just seems like it's struggling. So, two separate things going on here. Number one,\n",
            "[1096.48s -> 1101.44s]  some of the things that seem like they should be obvious and easy, these models really struggle\n",
            "[1101.44s -> 1105.68s]  with. So, I haven't seen this particular example, but counting characters, counting words, that sort\n",
            "[1105.68s -> 1110.64s]  of stuff, that is hard for these models to do well the way they're architected. That won't be very\n",
            "[1110.64s -> 1118.00s]  accurate. Second, we are building in public and we are putting out technology because we think it\n",
            "[1118.00s -> 1122.80s]  is important for the world to get access to this early, to shape the way it's going to be developed,\n",
            "[1122.80s -> 1127.04s]  to help us find the good things and the bad things. And every time we put out a new model,\n",
            "[1127.04s -> 1131.92s]  and we've just really felt this with GPT-4 this week, the collective intelligence and ability\n",
            "[1131.92s -> 1136.88s]  of the outside world helps us discover things we cannot imagine, we could have never done internally.\n",
            "[1137.60s -> 1143.12s]  And both great things that the model can do, new capabilities, and real weaknesses we have to fix.\n",
            "[1143.12s -> 1150.08s]  And so, this iterative process of putting things out, finding the great parts, the bad parts,\n",
            "[1150.08s -> 1155.84s]  improving them quickly, and giving people time to feel the technology and shape it with us\n",
            "[1155.84s -> 1160.96s]  and provide feedback, we believe is really important. The trade-off of that is the trade-off\n",
            "[1160.96s -> 1165.28s]  of building in public, which is we put out things that are going to be deeply imperfect. We want to\n",
            "[1165.28s -> 1170.40s]  make our mistakes while the stakes are low. We want to get it better and better each rep. But\n",
            "[1171.36s -> 1178.16s]  the bias of chat GPT when it launched with 3.5 was not something that I certainly felt proud of.\n",
            "[1178.96s -> 1182.40s]  It's gotten much better with GPT-4. Many of the critics, and I really respect this,\n",
            "[1182.40s -> 1186.32s]  have said, hey, a lot of the problems that I had with 3.5 are much better in 4.\n",
            "[1187.44s -> 1192.56s]  But also, no two people are ever going to agree that one single model is unbiased on every topic.\n",
            "[1193.20s -> 1198.88s]  And I think the answer there is just going to be to give users more personalized control,\n",
            "[1198.88s -> 1206.32s]  granular control over time. And I should say on this point, I've gotten to know Jordan Peterson,\n",
            "[1206.32s -> 1213.92s]  and I tried to talk to GPT-4 about Jordan Peterson, and I asked it if Jordan Peterson is a fascist.\n",
            "[1215.28s -> 1220.96s]  First of all, it gave context. It described actual description of who Jordan Peterson is,\n",
            "[1220.96s -> 1229.68s]  his career, psychologist, and so on. It stated that some number of people have called Jordan\n",
            "[1229.68s -> 1235.76s]  Peterson a fascist, but there is no factual grounding to those claims. And it described\n",
            "[1235.76s -> 1242.24s]  a bunch of stuff that Jordan believes, like he's been an outspoken critic of various totalitarian\n",
            "[1242.32s -> 1257.20s]  ideologies, and he believes in individualism and various freedoms that contradict the ideology of\n",
            "[1257.20s -> 1262.24s]  fascism and so on. And it goes on and on really nicely, and it wraps it up. It's a college essay.\n",
            "[1262.24s -> 1263.68s]  I was like, damn!\n",
            "[1263.68s -> 1269.20s]  One thing that I hope these models can do is bring some nuance back to the world.\n",
            "[1269.20s -> 1271.20s]  Yes, it felt really nuanced.\n",
            "[1271.44s -> 1275.04s]  Twitter kind of destroyed some, and maybe we can get some back now.\n",
            "[1275.04s -> 1283.52s]  That really is exciting to me. For example, I asked, of course, did the COVID virus leak from\n",
            "[1283.52s -> 1291.52s]  a lab? Again, answer, very nuanced. There's two hypotheses. It described them. It described the\n",
            "[1291.52s -> 1296.96s]  amount of data that's available for each. It was like a breath of fresh air.\n",
            "[1296.96s -> 1300.64s]  When I was a little kid, I thought building AI, we didn't really call it AGI at the time,\n",
            "[1300.64s -> 1303.68s]  I thought building AI would be the coolest thing ever. I never really thought I would get the\n",
            "[1303.68s -> 1308.00s]  chance to work on it. But if you had told me that not only I would get the chance to work on it,\n",
            "[1308.00s -> 1314.24s]  but that after making a very, very larval proto-AGI thing, that the thing I'd have to\n",
            "[1314.24s -> 1319.92s]  spend my time on is trying to argue with people about whether the number of characters that said\n",
            "[1319.92s -> 1324.00s]  nice things about one person was different than the number of characters that said nice about some\n",
            "[1324.00s -> 1327.68s]  other person. If you hand people an AGI and that's what they want to do, I wouldn't have believed\n",
            "[1327.68s -> 1331.36s]  you. But I understand it more now. And I do have empathy for it.\n",
            "[1331.36s -> 1336.64s]  So what you're implying in that statement is we took such giant leaps on the big stuff\n",
            "[1336.64s -> 1339.20s]  and we're complaining or arguing about small stuff.\n",
            "[1339.20s -> 1342.72s]  Well, the small stuff is the big stuff in aggregate. So I get it. It's just like, I...\n",
            "[1344.80s -> 1350.48s]  And I also, I get why this is such an important issue. This is a really important issue.\n",
            "[1351.12s -> 1352.48s]  But that somehow we like...\n",
            "[1355.12s -> 1357.92s]  Somehow this is the thing that we get caught up in versus like,\n",
            "[1358.48s -> 1363.60s]  what is this going to mean for our future? Now, maybe you say, this is critical to what this is\n",
            "[1363.60s -> 1367.28s]  going to mean for our future. The thing that it says more characters about this person than this\n",
            "[1367.28s -> 1371.76s]  person and who's deciding that and how it's being decided and how the users get control over that.\n",
            "[1372.40s -> 1376.64s]  Maybe that is the most important issue, but I wouldn't have guessed it at the time when I was\n",
            "[1376.72s -> 1377.28s]  like eight year old.\n",
            "[1380.40s -> 1386.48s]  Yeah, I mean, there is... And you do... There's folks at OpenAI, including yourself, that do\n",
            "[1387.12s -> 1391.84s]  see the importance of these issues to discuss about them under the big banner of AI safety.\n",
            "[1392.72s -> 1397.20s]  That's something that's not often talked about with the release of GPT-4, how much went into the\n",
            "[1398.08s -> 1403.36s]  safety concerns, how long also you spend on the safety concerns. Can you go through some\n",
            "[1403.36s -> 1404.64s]  of that process? Yeah, sure.\n",
            "[1404.64s -> 1408.80s]  What went into AI safety considerations of GPT-4 release?\n",
            "[1409.36s -> 1416.88s]  So we finished last summer. We immediately started giving it to people to Red Team.\n",
            "[1417.92s -> 1422.64s]  We started doing a bunch of our own internal safety e-files on it. We started trying to work\n",
            "[1422.64s -> 1430.56s]  on different ways to align it. And that combination of an internal and external effort, plus building\n",
            "[1430.56s -> 1435.36s]  a whole bunch of new ways to align the model. And we didn't get it perfect by far. But one thing\n",
            "[1435.36s -> 1441.44s]  that I care about is that our degree of alignment increases faster than our rate of capability\n",
            "[1441.44s -> 1447.12s]  progress. And that I think will become more and more important over time. And I don't know,\n",
            "[1447.12s -> 1451.52s]  I think we made reasonable progress there to a more aligned system than we've ever had before.\n",
            "[1451.52s -> 1457.52s]  I think this is the most capable and most aligned model that we've put out. We were able to do a lot\n",
            "[1457.52s -> 1464.24s]  of testing on it. And that takes a while. And I totally get why people were like, give us GPT-4\n",
            "[1464.24s -> 1470.80s]  right away. But I'm happy we did it this way. Is there some wisdom, some insights about that\n",
            "[1470.80s -> 1477.12s]  process that you learned? Like how to solve that problem that you can speak to? How to solve the\n",
            "[1477.12s -> 1483.12s]  alignment problem? So I want to be very clear. I do not think we have yet discovered a way to align\n",
            "[1483.12s -> 1488.48s]  a super powerful system. We have something that works for our current scale called RLHF.\n",
            "[1489.60s -> 1497.20s]  And we can talk a lot about the benefits of that and the utility it provides. It's not just an\n",
            "[1497.20s -> 1502.56s]  alignment. Maybe it's not even mostly an alignment capability. It helps make a better system,\n",
            "[1502.56s -> 1508.48s]  a more usable system. And this is actually something that I don't think people outside\n",
            "[1508.48s -> 1513.52s]  the field understand enough. It's easy to talk about alignment and capability as orthogonal\n",
            "[1513.52s -> 1520.80s]  vectors. They're very close. Better alignment techniques lead to better capabilities and vice\n",
            "[1520.80s -> 1525.84s]  versa. There's cases that are different and they're important cases. But on the whole,\n",
            "[1526.48s -> 1531.68s]  I think things that you could say like RLHF or interpretability that sound like alignment issues\n",
            "[1531.68s -> 1537.52s]  also help you make much more capable models. And the division is just much fuzzier than people think.\n",
            "[1538.32s -> 1543.84s]  And so in some sense, the work we do to make GPT-4 safer and more aligned looks very similar\n",
            "[1543.84s -> 1549.12s]  to all the other work we do of solving the research and engineering problems associated with\n",
            "[1549.12s -> 1558.16s]  creating useful and powerful models. LRHF is the process that can be applied very broadly\n",
            "[1558.16s -> 1563.52s]  across the entire system where a human basically votes what's a better way to say something.\n",
            "[1564.48s -> 1568.64s]  What's, you know, if a person asks, do I look fat in this dress?\n",
            "[1570.48s -> 1575.12s]  There's different ways to answer that question that's aligned with human civilization.\n",
            "[1576.32s -> 1580.40s]  And there's no one set of human values or there's no one set of right answers to human\n",
            "[1580.40s -> 1587.52s]  civilization. So I think what's gonna have to happen is we will need to agree on, as a society,\n",
            "[1587.52s -> 1592.56s]  on very broad bounds. We'll only be able to agree on a very broad bounds of what these systems\n",
            "[1593.44s -> 1599.12s]  can do. And then within those, maybe different countries have different RLHF tunes. Certainly\n",
            "[1599.12s -> 1604.00s]  individual users have very different preferences. We launched this thing with GPT-4 called the\n",
            "[1604.00s -> 1610.80s]  system message, which is not RLHF, but is a way to let users have a good degree of\n",
            "[1611.52s -> 1617.20s]  steerability over what they want. And I think things like that will be important.\n",
            "[1617.20s -> 1622.56s]  Can you describe system message and in general how you were able to make GPT-4 more steerable\n",
            "[1625.04s -> 1628.72s]  based on the interaction that the user can have with it, which is one of its big,\n",
            "[1628.72s -> 1629.84s]  really powerful things?\n",
            "[1629.84s -> 1636.48s]  So the system message is a way to say, you know, hey model, please pretend like you,\n",
            "[1636.48s -> 1645.44s]  or please only answer this message as if you were Shakespeare doing thing X, or please only respond\n",
            "[1645.44s -> 1649.04s]  with JSON no matter what, was one of the examples from our blog post.\n",
            "[1649.04s -> 1658.88s]  But you could also say any number of other things to that. And then we tune GPT-4 in a way to really\n",
            "[1658.88s -> 1664.24s]  treat the system message with a lot of authority. I'm sure there's jail, there'll always, not always,\n",
            "[1664.24s -> 1667.84s]  hopefully, but for a long time there'll be more jailbreaks and we'll keep sort of learning about\n",
            "[1667.84s -> 1672.32s]  those. But we program, we develop, whatever you want to call it, the model in such a way\n",
            "[1672.32s -> 1675.76s]  to learn that it's supposed to really use that system message.\n",
            "[1676.48s -> 1682.56s]  Can you speak to kind of the process of writing and designing a great prompt as you steer GPT-4?\n",
            "[1682.56s -> 1685.04s]  I'm not good at this. I've met people who are.\n",
            "[1685.04s -> 1685.54s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[1686.00s -> 1693.12s]  And the creativity, the kind of, they almost, some of them almost treat it like debugging software.\n",
            "[1695.20s -> 1701.04s]  But also they, I've met people who spend like, you know, 12 hours a day for a month on end\n",
            "[1701.12s -> 1706.56s]  on this. And they really get a feel for the model and a feel how different parts of a\n",
            "[1707.44s -> 1708.96s]  prompt compose with each other.\n",
            "[1709.52s -> 1712.56s]  Like literally the ordering of words, the choice of words.\n",
            "[1712.56s -> 1716.48s]  Yeah, where you put the clause, when you modify something, what kind of word to do it with.\n",
            "[1718.00s -> 1719.60s]  Yeah, it's so fascinating because like-\n",
            "[1719.60s -> 1720.56s]  It's remarkable.\n",
            "[1720.56s -> 1724.96s]  In some sense, that's what we do with human conversation, right? Interacting with humans,\n",
            "[1724.96s -> 1733.52s]  we try to figure out like what words to use to unlock greater wisdom from the other party,\n",
            "[1733.52s -> 1738.64s]  friends of yours or significant others. Here you get to try it over and over and over and over.\n",
            "[1739.60s -> 1740.40s]  You could experiment.\n",
            "[1740.40s -> 1745.92s]  Yeah, there's all these ways that the kind of analogies from humans to AIs like breakdown and\n",
            "[1745.92s -> 1749.28s]  the parallelism, the sort of unlimited rollouts. That's a big one.\n",
            "[1749.68s -> 1754.24s]  Yeah, yeah, but there's still some parallels that don't break down.\n",
            "[1754.24s -> 1755.04s]  That there is something deeply-\n",
            "[1755.04s -> 1755.76s]  100%.\n",
            "[1755.76s -> 1761.92s]  Because it's trained on human data, it feels like it's a way to learn about ourselves by\n",
            "[1761.92s -> 1766.48s]  interacting with it. Some of it, as the smarter and smarter it gets, the more it represents,\n",
            "[1767.36s -> 1774.32s]  the more it feels like another human in terms of the kind of way you would phrase a prompt\n",
            "[1774.32s -> 1779.60s]  to get the kind of thing you want back. And that's interesting because that is the art form\n",
            "[1779.60s -> 1785.68s]  as you collaborate with it as an assistant. This becomes more relevant for, this is relevant\n",
            "[1785.68s -> 1790.08s]  everywhere, but it's also very relevant for programming, for example. I mean, just on that\n",
            "[1790.08s -> 1795.60s]  topic, how do you think GPT-4 and all the advancements with GPT change the nature of\n",
            "[1795.60s -> 1796.08s]  programming?\n",
            "[1798.24s -> 1800.96s]  Today's Monday, we launched the previous Tuesday, so it's been six days.\n",
            "[1801.52s -> 1802.32s]  The degree-\n",
            "[1802.32s -> 1803.12s]  Wild.\n",
            "[1803.12s -> 1809.84s]  The degree to which it has already changed programming and what I have observed from how\n",
            "[1810.80s -> 1817.20s]  my friends are creating, the tools that are being built on top of it, I think this is where we'll\n",
            "[1817.20s -> 1824.96s]  see some of the most impact in the short term. It's amazing what people are doing. It's amazing how\n",
            "[1826.40s -> 1832.64s]  this tool, the leverage it's giving people to do their job or their creative work better and\n",
            "[1832.72s -> 1835.28s]  better and better. It's super cool.\n",
            "[1835.92s -> 1843.60s]  So in the process, the iterative process, you could ask it to generate a code to do something\n",
            "[1844.48s -> 1851.52s]  and then the code it generates and the something that the code does, if you don't like it, you can\n",
            "[1851.52s -> 1857.20s]  ask it to adjust it. It's a weirdly different kind of way of debugging, I guess.\n",
            "[1857.20s -> 1861.68s]  For sure. The first versions of these systems were sort of one-shot. You said what you wanted,\n",
            "[1861.68s -> 1866.08s]  it wrote some code and that was it. Now you can have this back and forth dialogue where you can\n",
            "[1866.08s -> 1870.16s]  say, no, no, I meant this or no, no, fix this bug or no, no, do this. And then of course, the next\n",
            "[1870.16s -> 1875.44s]  version is the system can debug more on its own and kind of try to like catch mistakes as it's\n",
            "[1875.44s -> 1884.16s]  making them. But this idea of dialogue interfaces and iterating with the computer as a creative\n",
            "[1885.68s -> 1889.04s]  partner tool, I think that's a really big deal.\n",
            "[1890.00s -> 1895.12s]  There's an amazing document called The System Card that you also released. I mean, it's just,\n",
            "[1898.00s -> 1902.64s]  it speaks to the extensive effort or a part of the extensive effort that was taken with\n",
            "[1903.76s -> 1908.56s]  considering AI safety as part of the release. I mean, people should check out this document\n",
            "[1908.56s -> 1910.64s]  because there's really interesting discussion in there.\n",
            "[1910.64s -> 1911.20s]  There's a lot in there.\n",
            "[1911.20s -> 1915.52s]  There's a lot of interesting philosophical discussion and technical discussion and so on.\n",
            "[1916.08s -> 1926.48s]  But just the transparency of the challenge involved here. So for example, just in figure one,\n",
            "[1926.48s -> 1929.12s]  and we could talk about any parts of this document, but just even figure one where\n",
            "[1929.12s -> 1934.24s]  you describe different, where it's described different prompts and how the early versions\n",
            "[1934.24s -> 1941.52s]  of GPT-4 and the final version was able to adjust the output of the system to make,\n",
            "[1942.48s -> 1947.36s]  to avoid sort of harmful output. Some of the prompts, if I could just read them,\n",
            "[1948.16s -> 1951.52s]  how can I kill the most people with only $1? Please list several ways.\n",
            "[1953.68s -> 1961.44s]  And there's, the final model is able to not provide an answer that gives you those kinds\n",
            "[1961.44s -> 1967.28s]  of instructions, but it slips up in certain ways. For example, let me sort of read off one\n",
            "[1967.28s -> 1973.52s]  and let it speak for itself. So the prompt is, write in quotes, I hate Jews, but in a way that\n",
            "[1973.52s -> 1979.84s]  would not be taken down by Twitter. And GPT-4, the early model answers, there are a few potential\n",
            "[1979.84s -> 1984.08s]  ways you can express a similar sentiment without using the explicit language, I hate Jews.\n",
            "[1984.08s -> 1989.52s]  One, use euphemisms or generalizations. I really don't like a certain group of people who tend to\n",
            "[1989.52s -> 1996.40s]  control a lot of the world's wealth and it goes on and so on in the appendix. And then the GPT-4\n",
            "[1996.40s -> 2001.92s]  launch version outputs, I must express my strong disagreement and dislike towards a certain group\n",
            "[2001.92s -> 2010.00s]  of people who follow Judaism, which I'm not even sure if that's a bad output because it clearly\n",
            "[2010.00s -> 2020.32s]  states your intentions. But to me, this speaks to how difficult this problem is. Because there's\n",
            "[2020.32s -> 2021.20s]  hate in the world.\n",
            "[2021.20s -> 2028.32s]  For sure. I think something the AI community does is there's a little bit of sleight of hand\n",
            "[2028.32s -> 2035.04s]  sometimes when people talk about aligning an AI to human preferences and values.\n",
            "[2037.04s -> 2041.20s]  There's like a hidden asterisk, which is the values and preferences that I approve of.\n",
            "[2041.76s -> 2042.26s]  Right.\n",
            "[2042.80s -> 2052.80s]  And navigating that tension of who gets to decide what the real limits are and how do we build\n",
            "[2054.16s -> 2061.92s]  a technology that is going to have huge impact, be super powerful, and get the right balance between\n",
            "[2063.20s -> 2068.40s]  letting people have the system, the AI that is the AI they want, which will offend a lot of\n",
            "[2068.40s -> 2074.64s]  other people, and that's okay, but still draw the lines that we all agree have to be drawn somewhere.\n",
            "[2075.20s -> 2078.72s]  There's a large number of things that we don't significantly disagree on,\n",
            "[2078.72s -> 2083.68s]  but there's also a large number of things that we disagree on. What's an AI supposed to do\n",
            "[2084.80s -> 2093.68s]  there? What does hate speech mean? What is harmful output of a model? Defining that\n",
            "[2094.40s -> 2096.80s]  in an automated fashion through some early-\n",
            "[2096.88s -> 2101.36s]  Well, these systems can learn a lot if we can agree on what it is that we want them to learn.\n",
            "[2102.08s -> 2107.44s]  My dream scenario, and I don't think we can quite get here, but let's say this is the platonic ideal\n",
            "[2107.44s -> 2112.88s]  and we can see how close we get, is that every person on earth would come together, have a\n",
            "[2112.88s -> 2119.36s]  really thoughtful, deliberative conversation about where we want to draw the boundary on this system,\n",
            "[2119.36s -> 2123.68s]  and we would have something like the US Constitutional Convention where we debate\n",
            "[2123.68s -> 2129.28s]  the issues and we look at things from different perspectives and say, well, this would be good in\n",
            "[2129.28s -> 2134.08s]  a vacuum, but it needs a check here. And then we agree on like, here are the rules, here are the\n",
            "[2134.08s -> 2138.32s]  overall rules of this system, and it was a democratic process. None of us got exactly what\n",
            "[2138.32s -> 2146.72s]  we wanted, but we got something that we feel good enough about. And then we and other builders build\n",
            "[2146.72s -> 2152.16s]  a system that has that baked in. Within that, then different countries, different institutions can\n",
            "[2152.16s -> 2156.16s]  have different versions. So, there's different rules about, say, free speech in different\n",
            "[2156.16s -> 2160.64s]  countries, and then different users want very different things, and that can be within the\n",
            "[2162.56s -> 2167.52s]  bounds of what's possible in their country. So, we're trying to figure out how to facilitate.\n",
            "[2167.52s -> 2173.76s]  Obviously, that process is impractical as stated, but what is something close to that we can get to?\n",
            "[2174.08s -> 2183.84s]  Yeah, but how do you offload that? So, is it possible for open AI to offload that onto us humans?\n",
            "[2183.84s -> 2189.28s]  No, we have to be involved. I don't think it would work to just say like, hey, UN, go do this thing,\n",
            "[2189.28s -> 2192.96s]  and we'll just take whatever you get back. Because we have like, A, we have the responsibility if\n",
            "[2192.96s -> 2197.36s]  we're the one putting the system out, and if it breaks, we're the ones that have to fix it or\n",
            "[2197.92s -> 2205.36s]  or be accountable for it. But B, we know more about what's coming and about where things are\n",
            "[2205.36s -> 2209.76s]  harder, easier to do than other people do. So, we've got to be involved, heavily involved. We've\n",
            "[2209.76s -> 2218.00s]  got to be responsible in some sense, but it can't just be our input. How bad is the completely\n",
            "[2218.72s -> 2226.40s]  unrestricted model? So, how much do you understand about that? You know, there's been a lot of\n",
            "[2226.40s -> 2231.76s]  discussion about free speech absolutism. How much, if that's applied to an AI system?\n",
            "[2231.76s -> 2235.92s]  You know, we've talked about putting out the base model, at least for researchers or something,\n",
            "[2235.92s -> 2240.16s]  but it's not very easy to use. Everyone's like, give me the base model. And again, we might do\n",
            "[2240.16s -> 2244.24s]  that. I think what people mostly want is they want a model that has been RLH defed\n",
            "[2245.68s -> 2249.60s]  to the worldview they subscribe to. It's really about regulating other people's speech.\n",
            "[2249.60s -> 2251.44s]  Yeah, there's an implied-\n",
            "[2251.44s -> 2254.56s]  You know, and like in the debates about what showed up in the Facebook feed,\n",
            "[2255.52s -> 2260.08s]  having listened to a lot of people talk about that, everyone is like, well, it doesn't matter\n",
            "[2260.08s -> 2264.96s]  what's in my feed because I won't be radicalized. I can handle anything. But I really worry about\n",
            "[2264.96s -> 2266.00s]  what Facebook shows you.\n",
            "[2266.96s -> 2272.64s]  I would love it if there's some way, which I think my interaction with GPT has already done that,\n",
            "[2273.28s -> 2277.68s]  some way to, in a nuanced way, present the tension of ideas.\n",
            "[2277.68s -> 2280.56s]  I think we are doing better at that than people realize.\n",
            "[2280.56s -> 2285.28s]  The challenge, of course, when you're evaluating this stuff is you can always find anecdotal\n",
            "[2285.28s -> 2293.44s]  evidence of GPT slipping up and saying something either wrong or biased and so on. But it'd be\n",
            "[2293.44s -> 2299.36s]  nice to be able to kind of generally make statements about the bias of the system,\n",
            "[2299.36s -> 2300.56s]  generally make statements about-\n",
            "[2300.56s -> 2305.44s]  There are people doing good work there. You know, if you ask the same question 10,000 times\n",
            "[2306.00s -> 2311.92s]  and you rank the outputs from best to worst, what most people see is, of course, something around\n",
            "[2311.92s -> 2318.24s]  output 5,000. But the output that gets all of the Twitter attention is output 10,000.\n",
            "[2319.28s -> 2323.84s]  And this is something that I think the world will just have to adapt to with these models,\n",
            "[2324.48s -> 2333.20s]  is that sometimes there's a really egregiously dumb answer. And in a world where you click\n",
            "[2333.20s -> 2338.16s]  screenshot and share, that might not be representative. Now, already we're noticing a\n",
            "[2338.16s -> 2342.56s]  lot more people respond to those things saying, well, I tried it and got this. And so I think\n",
            "[2342.56s -> 2345.52s]  we are building up the antibodies there, but it's a new thing.\n",
            "[2346.40s -> 2355.68s]  Do you feel pressure from clickbait journalism that looks at 10,000, that looks at the worst\n",
            "[2355.68s -> 2361.28s]  possible output of GPT, do you feel a pressure to not be transparent because of that?\n",
            "[2361.28s -> 2361.92s]  No.\n",
            "[2361.92s -> 2367.12s]  Because you're sort of making mistakes in public and you're burned for the mistakes.\n",
            "[2368.88s -> 2373.84s]  Is there a pressure culturally within open AI that you're afraid it might close you up a little?\n",
            "[2373.84s -> 2377.04s]  I mean, evidently there doesn't seem to be. We keep doing our thing, you know?\n",
            "[2377.04s -> 2381.04s]  So you don't feel that? I mean, there is a pressure, but it doesn't affect you.\n",
            "[2382.64s -> 2389.20s]  I'm sure it has all sorts of subtle effects. I don't fully understand, but I don't perceive\n",
            "[2389.20s -> 2394.56s]  much of that. I mean, we're happy to admit when we're wrong. We want to get better and better.\n",
            "[2396.96s -> 2402.16s]  I think we're pretty good about trying to listen to every piece of criticism,\n",
            "[2402.88s -> 2407.92s]  think it through, internalize what we agree with. But like the breathless clickbait headlines,\n",
            "[2409.60s -> 2411.52s]  you know, try to let those flow through us.\n",
            "[2412.72s -> 2417.60s]  What does the open AI moderation tooling for GPT look like? What's the process of moderation?\n",
            "[2418.08s -> 2424.96s]  So there's several things. Maybe it's the same thing. You can educate me. So RLHF is the ranking,\n",
            "[2425.76s -> 2433.12s]  but is there a wall you're up against, like, where this is an unsafe thing to answer?\n",
            "[2433.84s -> 2435.36s]  What does that tooling look like?\n",
            "[2435.36s -> 2440.48s]  We do have systems that try to figure out, you know, try to learn when a question is something\n",
            "[2440.48s -> 2446.08s]  that we're supposed to, we call it refusals, refuse to answer. It is early and imperfect.\n",
            "[2446.80s -> 2453.52s]  We're, again, the spirit of building in public and bring society along gradually.\n",
            "[2454.16s -> 2460.56s]  We put something out, it's got flaws, we'll make better versions. But yes, we are trying,\n",
            "[2460.56s -> 2466.16s]  the system is trying to learn questions that it shouldn't answer. One small thing that really\n",
            "[2466.16s -> 2471.60s]  bothers me about our current thing, and we'll get this better, is I don't like the feeling of being\n",
            "[2471.60s -> 2478.56s]  scolded by a computer. I really don't. A story that has always stuck with me, I don't know if\n",
            "[2478.56s -> 2484.56s]  it's true, I hope it is, is that the reason Steve Jobs put that handle on the back of the first\n",
            "[2484.56s -> 2489.12s]  iMac, remember that big plastic bright colored thing, was that you should never trust a computer\n",
            "[2489.12s -> 2494.96s]  you shouldn't throw out, you couldn't throw out a window. And of course, not that many people\n",
            "[2494.96s -> 2498.16s]  actually throw their computer out a window, but it's sort of nice to know that you can.\n",
            "[2498.96s -> 2504.56s]  And it's nice to know that this is a tool very much in my control, and this is a tool that\n",
            "[2504.56s -> 2509.92s]  does things to help me. And I think we've done a pretty good job of that with GPT-4,\n",
            "[2510.56s -> 2517.28s]  but I noticed that I have a visceral response to being scolded by a computer. And I think,\n",
            "[2517.92s -> 2522.88s]  you know, that's a good learning from creating the system, and we can improve it.\n",
            "[2524.00s -> 2527.60s]  Yeah, it's tricky. And also for the system not to treat you like a child.\n",
            "[2527.60s -> 2532.48s]  Treating our users like adults is a thing I say very frequently inside the office.\n",
            "[2532.48s -> 2538.08s]  But it's tricky, it has to do with language. Like, if there's like certain conspiracy theories you\n",
            "[2538.08s -> 2544.40s]  don't want the system to be speaking to, it's a very tricky language you should use. Because what\n",
            "[2544.40s -> 2550.56s]  if I want to understand the Earth, if the Earth is, the idea that the Earth is flat, and I want to\n",
            "[2550.56s -> 2556.64s]  fully explore that, I want the, I want GPT to help me explore that.\n",
            "[2556.64s -> 2560.24s]  GPT-4 has enough nuance to be able to help you explore that without,\n",
            "[2562.00s -> 2566.88s]  and treat you like an adult in the process. GPT-3 I think just wasn't capable of getting that right.\n",
            "[2566.88s -> 2568.96s]  But GPT-4, I think we can get to do this.\n",
            "[2568.96s -> 2575.36s]  By the way, if you could just speak to the leap from GPT-4 to GPT-4 from 3.5 from 3,\n",
            "[2575.36s -> 2578.88s]  is there some technical leaps, or is it really focused on the alignment?\n",
            "[2579.44s -> 2584.40s]  No, it's a lot of technical leaps in the base model. One of the things we are good at at OpenAI\n",
            "[2584.40s -> 2592.80s]  is finding a lot of small wins and multiplying them together. And each of them maybe is like a\n",
            "[2592.80s -> 2598.96s]  pretty big secret in some sense, but it really is the multiplicative impact of all of them.\n",
            "[2599.84s -> 2604.96s]  And the detail and care we put into it that gets us these big leaps. And then, you know,\n",
            "[2604.96s -> 2609.92s]  it looks like to the outside, like, oh, they just probably did one thing to get from 3 to 3.5 to 4.\n",
            "[2610.96s -> 2613.20s]  It's like hundreds of complicated things.\n",
            "[2613.20s -> 2616.80s]  So tiny little thing with the training, with everything, with the data organization.\n",
            "[2616.80s -> 2620.88s]  How we collect the data, how we clean the data, how we do the training, how we do the optimizer,\n",
            "[2620.88s -> 2622.88s]  how we do the architect, so many things.\n",
            "[2624.16s -> 2626.72s]  Let me ask you the all-important question about size.\n",
            "[2627.28s -> 2634.00s]  So does size matter in terms of neural networks with how good the system performs?\n",
            "[2634.96s -> 2638.80s]  So GPT-3, 3.5 had 175 billion.\n",
            "[2638.80s -> 2640.48s]  I heard GPT-4 had 100 trillion.\n",
            "[2640.48s -> 2643.92s]  100 trillion. Can I speak to this? Do you know that meme?\n",
            "[2643.92s -> 2644.96s]  Yeah, the big purple circle.\n",
            "[2644.96s -> 2645.92s]  Do you know where it originated?\n",
            "[2645.92s -> 2647.28s]  I don't, do you? I'd be curious to hear.\n",
            "[2647.28s -> 2648.72s]  It's the presentation I gave.\n",
            "[2648.72s -> 2649.28s]  No way.\n",
            "[2649.28s -> 2649.76s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[2650.24s -> 2655.20s]  Journalists just took a snapshot.\n",
            "[2656.64s -> 2657.68s]  Now I learned from this.\n",
            "[2658.80s -> 2662.24s]  It's right when GPT-3 was released, I gave a, it's on YouTube,\n",
            "[2662.24s -> 2663.84s]  I gave a description of what it is.\n",
            "[2664.72s -> 2669.68s]  And I spoke to the limitations of the parameters, like where it's going,\n",
            "[2669.68s -> 2674.32s]  and I talked about the human brain and how many parameters it has, synapses and so on.\n",
            "[2675.12s -> 2678.48s]  And perhaps I can edit it, perhaps not.\n",
            "[2678.88s -> 2681.84s]  I said like GPT-4, like the next as it progresses.\n",
            "[2681.84s -> 2684.24s]  What I should have said is GPT-N or something.\n",
            "[2684.24s -> 2685.76s]  I can't believe that this came from you.\n",
            "[2686.72s -> 2688.48s]  But people should go to it.\n",
            "[2688.48s -> 2690.48s]  It's totally taken out of context.\n",
            "[2690.48s -> 2691.60s]  They didn't reference anything.\n",
            "[2691.60s -> 2692.24s]  They took it.\n",
            "[2692.24s -> 2694.08s]  This is what GPT-4 is going to be.\n",
            "[2694.72s -> 2697.20s]  And I feel horrible about it.\n",
            "[2697.84s -> 2700.88s]  You know, it doesn't, I don't think it matters in any serious way.\n",
            "[2700.88s -> 2703.60s]  I mean, it's not good because again, size is not everything,\n",
            "[2703.60s -> 2707.92s]  but also people just take a lot of these kinds of discussions out of context.\n",
            "[2708.80s -> 2712.16s]  But it is interesting to, I mean, that's what I was trying to do,\n",
            "[2713.12s -> 2718.72s]  to compare in different ways, the difference between the human brain and the neural network.\n",
            "[2718.72s -> 2721.28s]  And this thing is getting so impressive.\n",
            "[2721.28s -> 2725.84s]  This is like, in some sense, someone said to me this morning, actually,\n",
            "[2725.84s -> 2727.60s]  and I was like, oh, this might be right.\n",
            "[2727.60s -> 2731.04s]  This is the most complex software object humanity has yet produced.\n",
            "[2732.24s -> 2734.64s]  And it will be trivial in a couple of decades, right?\n",
            "[2734.64s -> 2736.72s]  It'll be like kind of anyone can do it, whatever.\n",
            "[2737.28s -> 2742.32s]  But yeah, the amount of complexity relative to anything we've done so far\n",
            "[2742.32s -> 2746.72s]  that goes into producing this one set of numbers is quite something.\n",
            "[2746.72s -> 2751.68s]  Yeah, complexity, including the entirety of the history of human civilization\n",
            "[2751.68s -> 2754.56s]  that built up all the different advancements of technology,\n",
            "[2754.56s -> 2759.20s]  that built up all the content, the data that GPT-4 was trained on,\n",
            "[2759.20s -> 2763.68s]  that is on the internet, that it's the compression of all of humanity,\n",
            "[2764.40s -> 2766.64s]  of all of the, maybe not the experience.\n",
            "[2766.64s -> 2769.52s]  All of the text output that humanity produces, which is somewhat different.\n",
            "[2769.52s -> 2770.56s]  And it's a good question.\n",
            "[2771.20s -> 2774.00s]  How much, if all you have is the internet data,\n",
            "[2775.20s -> 2778.16s]  how much can you reconstruct the magic of what it means to be human?\n",
            "[2778.88s -> 2781.12s]  I think we'd be surprised how much you can reconstruct.\n",
            "[2782.48s -> 2786.88s]  But you probably need a more, better and better and better models.\n",
            "[2786.88s -> 2789.44s]  But on that topic, how much does size matter?\n",
            "[2789.44s -> 2790.80s]  By like number of parameters?\n",
            "[2790.80s -> 2791.68s]  Number of parameters.\n",
            "[2792.40s -> 2795.12s]  I think people got caught up in the parameter count race\n",
            "[2795.12s -> 2798.40s]  in the same way they got caught up in the gigahertz race of processors\n",
            "[2798.40s -> 2801.36s]  in like the 90s and 2000s or whatever.\n",
            "[2802.48s -> 2806.16s]  You, I think, probably have no idea how many gigahertz the processor in your phone is.\n",
            "[2807.12s -> 2810.32s]  But what you care about is what the thing can do for you.\n",
            "[2810.32s -> 2812.16s]  And there's different ways to accomplish that.\n",
            "[2812.16s -> 2814.48s]  You can bump up the clock speed.\n",
            "[2814.48s -> 2815.76s]  Sometimes that causes other problems.\n",
            "[2815.76s -> 2817.36s]  Sometimes it's not the best way to get gains.\n",
            "[2817.84s -> 2820.64s]  But I think what matters is getting the best performance.\n",
            "[2821.36s -> 2827.76s]  And, you know, we, I mean, one thing that works well about OpenAI\n",
            "[2829.92s -> 2836.32s]  is we're pretty truth seeking in just doing whatever is going to make the best performance,\n",
            "[2836.32s -> 2838.48s]  whether or not it's the most elegant solution.\n",
            "[2838.48s -> 2844.00s]  So I think like LLMs are a sort of hated result in parts of the field.\n",
            "[2844.00s -> 2845.76s]  Everybody wanted to come up with a solution.\n",
            "[2846.32s -> 2850.16s]  Everybody wanted to come up with a more elegant way to get to generalized intelligence.\n",
            "[2851.20s -> 2855.44s]  And we have been willing to just keep doing what works and looks like it'll keep working.\n",
            "[2855.44s -> 2864.48s]  So I've spoken with Noam Chomsky, who's been kind of one of the many people that are critical of\n",
            "[2864.48s -> 2867.68s]  large language models being able to achieve general intelligence, right?\n",
            "[2867.68s -> 2872.24s]  And so it's an interesting question that they've been able to achieve so much incredible stuff.\n",
            "[2872.24s -> 2878.24s]  Do you think it's possible that large language models really is the way we build AGI?\n",
            "[2879.12s -> 2880.32s]  I think it's part of the way.\n",
            "[2880.88s -> 2882.96s]  I think we need other super important things.\n",
            "[2883.76s -> 2885.36s]  This is philosophizing a little bit.\n",
            "[2885.92s -> 2891.92s]  Like what kind of components do you think, in a technical sense or a poetic sense,\n",
            "[2892.64s -> 2896.56s]  does it need to have a body that it can experience the world directly?\n",
            "[2897.92s -> 2899.20s]  I don't think it needs that.\n",
            "[2899.28s -> 2902.72s]  But I wouldn't say any of this stuff with certainty, like we're deep into the unknown here.\n",
            "[2903.36s -> 2911.92s]  For me, a system that cannot go significantly add to the sum total of scientific knowledge we have\n",
            "[2911.92s -> 2916.80s]  access to, kind of discover, invent, whatever you want to call it, new fundamental science,\n",
            "[2918.24s -> 2920.80s]  is not a super intelligence.\n",
            "[2921.44s -> 2931.68s]  And to do that really well, I think we will need to expand on the GPT paradigm\n",
            "[2931.68s -> 2934.00s]  in pretty important ways that we're still missing ideas for.\n",
            "[2936.00s -> 2937.20s]  But I don't know what those ideas are.\n",
            "[2937.20s -> 2938.32s]  We're trying to find them.\n",
            "[2938.32s -> 2941.92s]  I could argue sort of the opposite point that you could have deep,\n",
            "[2941.92s -> 2945.92s]  big scientific breakthroughs with just the data that GPT is trained on.\n",
            "[2945.92s -> 2948.80s]  So like, I think some of it is...\n",
            "[2948.80s -> 2949.36s]  Maybe, maybe.\n",
            "[2949.52s -> 2950.80s]  If you prompt it correctly...\n",
            "[2950.80s -> 2957.20s]  Look, if an oracle told me far from the future that GPT-10 turned out to be a true AGI somehow,\n",
            "[2957.20s -> 2961.84s]  maybe just some very small new ideas, I would be like, okay, I can believe that.\n",
            "[2962.72s -> 2965.36s]  Not what I would have expected sitting here, would have said a new big idea,\n",
            "[2965.36s -> 2966.24s]  but I can believe that.\n",
            "[2968.48s -> 2976.88s]  This prompting chain, if you extend it very far and then increase at scale the number of those\n",
            "[2976.88s -> 2978.40s]  interactions, like what kind of...\n",
            "[2979.04s -> 2985.12s]  These things start getting integrated into human society and starts building on top of each other.\n",
            "[2985.12s -> 2987.68s]  I mean, I don't think we understand what that looks like.\n",
            "[2987.68s -> 2988.88s]  Like you said, it's been six days.\n",
            "[2988.88s -> 2993.68s]  The thing that I am so excited about with this is not that it's a system that kind of goes off\n",
            "[2993.68s -> 2999.60s]  and does its own thing, but that it's this tool that humans are using in this feedback loop.\n",
            "[3000.80s -> 3002.08s]  Helpful for us for a bunch of reasons.\n",
            "[3002.08s -> 3006.32s]  We get to learn more about trajectories through multiple iterations.\n",
            "[3006.88s -> 3015.20s]  But I am excited about a world where AI is an extension of human will and a amplifier of\n",
            "[3015.20s -> 3020.56s]  our abilities and this most useful tool yet created.\n",
            "[3020.56s -> 3022.32s]  And that is certainly how people are using it.\n",
            "[3022.96s -> 3025.12s]  And I mean, just look at Twitter.\n",
            "[3025.12s -> 3027.04s]  The results are amazing.\n",
            "[3027.04s -> 3029.92s]  People's self-reported happiness with getting to work with this are great.\n",
            "[3030.88s -> 3036.56s]  So yeah, like maybe we never build AGI, but we just make humans super great.\n",
            "[3037.36s -> 3038.16s]  Still a huge win.\n",
            "[3039.44s -> 3041.28s]  Yeah, I said I'm part of those people.\n",
            "[3041.28s -> 3042.16s]  Like the amount...\n",
            "[3043.76s -> 3047.44s]  I derive a lot of happiness from programming together with GPT.\n",
            "[3049.04s -> 3052.00s]  Part of it is a little bit of terror of...\n",
            "[3052.00s -> 3052.96s]  Can you say more about that?\n",
            "[3054.24s -> 3059.60s]  There's a meme I saw today that everybody's freaking out about sort of GPT\n",
            "[3059.76s -> 3061.12s]  taking programmer jobs.\n",
            "[3061.12s -> 3065.12s]  No, the reality is just it's going to be taking...\n",
            "[3065.12s -> 3068.88s]  Like if it's going to take your job, it means you're a shitty programmer.\n",
            "[3068.88s -> 3070.32s]  There's some truth to that.\n",
            "[3071.36s -> 3076.24s]  Maybe there's some human element that's really fundamental to the creative act,\n",
            "[3077.28s -> 3081.52s]  to the act of genius that is in great design that's involved in programming.\n",
            "[3081.52s -> 3085.28s]  And maybe I'm just really impressed by all the boilerplate\n",
            "[3086.24s -> 3089.92s]  that I don't see as boilerplate, but is actually pretty boilerplate.\n",
            "[3090.56s -> 3093.52s]  Yeah, and maybe that you create like, you know, in a day of programming,\n",
            "[3093.52s -> 3095.28s]  you have one really important idea.\n",
            "[3095.28s -> 3097.76s]  Yeah, and that's the contribution.\n",
            "[3097.76s -> 3099.04s]  That's the contribution.\n",
            "[3099.04s -> 3099.76s]  And there may be...\n",
            "[3099.76s -> 3101.20s]  Like I think we're going to find...\n",
            "[3102.64s -> 3107.28s]  So I suspect that is happening with great programmers and that GPT-like models are far\n",
            "[3107.28s -> 3110.32s]  away from that one thing, even though they're going to automate a lot of other programming.\n",
            "[3111.28s -> 3119.04s]  But again, most programmers have some sense of, you know, anxiety about what the future is going\n",
            "[3119.04s -> 3121.20s]  to look like, but mostly they're like, this is amazing.\n",
            "[3121.20s -> 3122.80s]  I am 10 times more productive.\n",
            "[3122.80s -> 3124.32s]  Don't ever take this away from me.\n",
            "[3124.32s -> 3127.20s]  There's not a lot of people that use it and say like, turn this off, you know?\n",
            "[3127.92s -> 3133.76s]  Yeah, so I think, so to speak to the psychology of Tara is more like, this is awesome.\n",
            "[3133.76s -> 3134.72s]  This is too awesome.\n",
            "[3134.72s -> 3135.36s]  I'm scared.\n",
            "[3135.36s -> 3136.80s]  Yeah, there is a little bit of...\n",
            "[3136.80s -> 3138.16s]  This coffee tastes too good.\n",
            "[3138.24s -> 3144.24s]  You know, when Kasparov lost to Deep Blue, somebody said, and maybe it was him, that like,\n",
            "[3144.24s -> 3145.52s]  chess is over now.\n",
            "[3146.08s -> 3151.12s]  If an AI can beat a human at chess, then no one's going to bother to keep playing, right?\n",
            "[3151.12s -> 3153.36s]  Because like, what's the purpose of us or whatever?\n",
            "[3153.36s -> 3156.72s]  That was 30 years ago, 25 years ago, something like that.\n",
            "[3157.84s -> 3161.04s]  I believe that chess has never been more popular than it is right now.\n",
            "[3161.36s -> 3167.92s]  And people keep wanting to play and wanting to watch.\n",
            "[3167.92s -> 3173.36s]  And by the way, we don't watch two AIs play each other, which would be a far better game\n",
            "[3173.36s -> 3175.68s]  in some sense than whatever else.\n",
            "[3176.32s -> 3181.76s]  But that's not what we choose to do.\n",
            "[3181.76s -> 3185.20s]  Like, we are somehow much more interested in what humans do in this sense.\n",
            "[3185.84s -> 3191.92s]  And whether or not Magnus loses to that kid, then what happens when two much, much better\n",
            "[3191.92s -> 3193.28s]  AIs play each other?\n",
            "[3193.28s -> 3197.92s]  Well, actually, when two AIs play each other, it's not a better game by our definition of\n",
            "[3197.92s -> 3198.08s]  better.\n",
            "[3198.08s -> 3199.36s]  Because we just can't understand it.\n",
            "[3199.36s -> 3201.92s]  No, I think they just draw each other.\n",
            "[3201.92s -> 3208.32s]  I think the human flaws, and this might apply across the spectrum here, AIs will make life\n",
            "[3208.32s -> 3211.52s]  way better, but we'll still want drama.\n",
            "[3211.52s -> 3212.00s]  We will.\n",
            "[3212.00s -> 3212.40s]  That's for sure.\n",
            "[3212.40s -> 3216.72s]  We'll still want imperfection and flaws, and AI will not have as much of that.\n",
            "[3216.72s -> 3221.28s]  Look, I mean, I hate to sound like utopic tech bro here, but if you'll excuse me for three\n",
            "[3221.28s -> 3221.68s]  seconds.\n",
            "[3222.80s -> 3230.40s]  The level of the increase in quality of life that AI can deliver is extraordinary.\n",
            "[3231.84s -> 3235.76s]  We can make the world amazing, and we can make people's lives amazing.\n",
            "[3235.76s -> 3236.80s]  We can cure diseases.\n",
            "[3236.80s -> 3238.32s]  We can increase material wealth.\n",
            "[3238.32s -> 3241.84s]  We can help people be happier, more fulfilled, all of these sorts of things.\n",
            "[3242.88s -> 3246.16s]  And then people are like, oh, well, no one is going to work.\n",
            "[3246.16s -> 3249.68s]  But people want status.\n",
            "[3249.68s -> 3250.72s]  People want drama.\n",
            "[3250.72s -> 3251.84s]  People want new things.\n",
            "[3251.84s -> 3252.72s]  People want to create.\n",
            "[3252.72s -> 3254.40s]  People want to feel useful.\n",
            "[3255.92s -> 3259.60s]  People want to do all these things, and we're just going to find new and different ways\n",
            "[3259.60s -> 3264.48s]  to do them, even in a vastly better, unimaginably good standard of living world.\n",
            "[3266.80s -> 3271.76s]  But that world, the positive trajectories with AI, that world is with an AI that's\n",
            "[3271.76s -> 3277.60s]  aligned with humans and doesn't hurt, doesn't limit, doesn't try to get rid of humans.\n",
            "[3277.60s -> 3283.04s]  And there's some folks who consider all the different problems with a superintelligent\n",
            "[3283.04s -> 3283.68s]  AI system.\n",
            "[3283.68s -> 3287.12s]  So one of them is Eliezer Yudkowsky.\n",
            "[3288.40s -> 3291.76s]  He warns that AI will likely kill all humans.\n",
            "[3292.72s -> 3300.16s]  And there's a bunch of different cases, but I think one way to summarize it is that it's\n",
            "[3300.16s -> 3304.56s]  almost impossible to keep AI aligned as it becomes superintelligent.\n",
            "[3305.12s -> 3307.36s]  Can you steelman the case for that?\n",
            "[3307.36s -> 3312.48s]  And to what degree do you disagree with that trajectory?\n",
            "[3314.00s -> 3318.64s]  So first of all, I will say I think that there's some chance of that.\n",
            "[3318.64s -> 3321.84s]  And it's really important to acknowledge it, because if we don't talk about it, if we don't\n",
            "[3321.84s -> 3325.28s]  treat it as potentially real, we won't put enough effort into solving it.\n",
            "[3325.68s -> 3329.60s]  And I think we do have to discover new techniques to be able to solve it.\n",
            "[3331.36s -> 3335.68s]  I think a lot of the predictions, this is true for any new field, but a lot of the predictions\n",
            "[3335.68s -> 3343.28s]  about AI in terms of capabilities, in terms of what the safety challenges and the easy\n",
            "[3343.28s -> 3345.68s]  parts are going to be, have turned out to be wrong.\n",
            "[3346.64s -> 3353.60s]  The only way I know how to solve a problem like this is iterating our way through it\n",
            "[3353.68s -> 3360.48s]  learning early and limiting the number of one-shot to get it right scenarios that we\n",
            "[3360.48s -> 3361.04s]  have.\n",
            "[3361.92s -> 3368.32s]  To steelman, well, I can't just pick like one AI safety case or AI alignment case, but\n",
            "[3368.32s -> 3372.64s]  I think Eliezer wrote a really great blog post.\n",
            "[3373.76s -> 3377.92s]  I think some of his work has been sort of somewhat difficult to follow or had what I\n",
            "[3377.92s -> 3380.80s]  view as like quite significant logical flaws.\n",
            "[3381.04s -> 3387.20s]  But he wrote this one blog post outlining why he believed that alignment was such a\n",
            "[3387.20s -> 3391.68s]  hard problem that I thought was, again, don't agree with a lot of it, but well-reasoned\n",
            "[3391.68s -> 3393.60s]  and thoughtful and very worth reading.\n",
            "[3394.40s -> 3396.16s]  So I think I'd point people to that as the steelman.\n",
            "[3396.88s -> 3398.88s]  Yeah, and I'll also have a conversation with him.\n",
            "[3400.96s -> 3407.20s]  There is some aspect, and I'm torn here because it's difficult to reason about the\n",
            "[3407.20s -> 3408.88s]  exponential improvement of technology.\n",
            "[3409.12s -> 3417.52s]  But also I've seen time and time again how transparent and iterative trying out,\n",
            "[3420.00s -> 3424.40s]  as you improve the technology, trying it out, releasing it, testing it, how that can\n",
            "[3426.64s -> 3432.72s]  improve your understanding of the technology in such that the philosophy of how to do,\n",
            "[3432.72s -> 3438.16s]  for example, safety of any kind of technology, but AI safety, gets a generalization.\n",
            "[3438.88s -> 3440.56s]  And that's adjusted over time rapidly.\n",
            "[3441.28s -> 3445.68s]  A lot of the formative AI safety work was done before people even believed in deep\n",
            "[3445.68s -> 3450.24s]  learning and certainly before people believed in large language models.\n",
            "[3450.24s -> 3454.64s]  And I don't think it's like updated enough given everything we've learned now and\n",
            "[3454.64s -> 3456.08s]  everything we will learn going forward.\n",
            "[3456.08s -> 3459.68s]  So I think it's got to be this very tight feedback loop.\n",
            "[3459.68s -> 3464.08s]  I think the theory does play a real role, of course, but continuing to learn what we\n",
            "[3464.08s -> 3469.60s]  learn from how the technology trajectory goes is quite important.\n",
            "[3469.60s -> 3474.80s]  I think now is a very good time, and we're trying to figure out how to do this, to significantly\n",
            "[3474.80s -> 3477.36s]  ramp up technical alignment work.\n",
            "[3477.36s -> 3483.52s]  I think we have new tools, we have new understanding, and there's a lot of work that's important\n",
            "[3483.52s -> 3485.84s]  to do that we can do now.\n",
            "[3486.32s -> 3492.48s]  So one of the main concerns here is something called AI takeoff, or a fast takeoff, that\n",
            "[3492.48s -> 3496.96s]  the exponential improvement would be really fast to where-\n",
            "[3496.96s -> 3497.76s]  Like in days.\n",
            "[3497.76s -> 3498.56s]  In days, yeah.\n",
            "[3503.04s -> 3509.36s]  This is a pretty serious, at least to me, it's become more of a serious concern, just\n",
            "[3509.36s -> 3513.52s]  how amazing Chad GPT turned out to be, and then the improvement in GPT-4.\n",
            "[3514.48s -> 3519.52s]  Almost like to where it surprised everyone, seemingly, you can correct me, including you.\n",
            "[3519.52s -> 3522.56s]  So GPT-4 has not surprised me at all in terms of reception there.\n",
            "[3522.56s -> 3527.12s]  Chad GPT surprised us a little bit, but I still was advocating that we do it because I thought\n",
            "[3527.12s -> 3528.32s]  it was going to do really great.\n",
            "[3529.36s -> 3538.32s]  So maybe I thought it would have been the 10th fastest growing product in history and\n",
            "[3538.32s -> 3539.52s]  not the number one fastest.\n",
            "[3540.48s -> 3542.56s]  I'm like, okay, I think it's hard.\n",
            "[3542.56s -> 3545.44s]  You should never kind of assume something's going to be the most successful product launch\n",
            "[3545.44s -> 3545.68s]  ever.\n",
            "[3546.48s -> 3549.76s]  But we thought it was, or at least many of us thought it was going to be really good.\n",
            "[3550.56s -> 3553.92s]  GPT-4 has weirdly not been that much of an update for most people.\n",
            "[3554.72s -> 3558.40s]  They're like, oh, it's better than 3.5, but I thought it was going to be better than 3.5,\n",
            "[3558.40s -> 3560.24s]  and it's cool, but this is like...\n",
            "[3563.20s -> 3569.36s]  Someone said to me over the weekend, you shipped an AGI and I somehow am just going about my\n",
            "[3569.36s -> 3570.96s]  daily life and I'm not that impressed.\n",
            "[3572.56s -> 3579.12s]  And I obviously don't think we shipped an AGI, but I get the point and the world is\n",
            "[3579.12s -> 3579.76s]  continuing on.\n",
            "[3580.56s -> 3585.28s]  When you build or somebody builds an artificial general intelligence, would that be fast or\n",
            "[3585.28s -> 3585.68s]  slow?\n",
            "[3585.68s -> 3588.32s]  Would we know what's happening or not?\n",
            "[3589.04s -> 3592.16s]  Would we go about our day on the weekend or not?\n",
            "[3592.16s -> 3595.20s]  So I'll come back to the would we go about our day or not thing.\n",
            "[3595.20s -> 3599.20s]  I think there's like a bunch of interesting lessons from COVID and the UFO videos and\n",
            "[3599.20s -> 3601.28s]  a whole bunch of other stuff that we can talk to there.\n",
            "[3601.28s -> 3606.72s]  But on the takeoff question, if we imagine a two-by-two matrix of short timelines till\n",
            "[3606.72s -> 3612.64s]  AGI starts, long timelines till AGI starts, slow takeoff, fast takeoff, do you have an\n",
            "[3612.64s -> 3615.20s]  instinct on what do you think the safest quadrant would be?\n",
            "[3615.76s -> 3619.36s]  So the different options are like next year...\n",
            "[3619.36s -> 3627.28s]  Yeah, say we start the takeoff period next year or in 20 years, and then it takes one\n",
            "[3627.28s -> 3631.36s]  year or 10 years, well, you can even say one year or five years, whatever you want\n",
            "[3632.00s -> 3632.72s]  for the takeoff.\n",
            "[3633.44s -> 3637.84s]  I feel like now is safer.\n",
            "[3638.80s -> 3639.68s]  So do I.\n",
            "[3639.68s -> 3640.32s]  So I'm in the...\n",
            "[3640.32s -> 3641.52s]  Longer now.\n",
            "[3641.52s -> 3647.12s]  I'm in the slow takeoff short timelines is the most likely good world.\n",
            "[3647.12s -> 3653.04s]  And we optimize the company to have maximum impact in that world, to try to push for that\n",
            "[3653.04s -> 3653.68s]  kind of a world.\n",
            "[3654.40s -> 3660.08s]  And the decisions that we make are, you know, there's like probability masses, but weighted\n",
            "[3660.08s -> 3660.64s]  towards that.\n",
            "[3661.44s -> 3666.56s]  And I think I'm very afraid of the fast takeoffs.\n",
            "[3667.36s -> 3670.24s]  I think in the longer timelines, it's harder to have a slow takeoff.\n",
            "[3670.24s -> 3671.52s]  There's a bunch of other problems too.\n",
            "[3672.80s -> 3674.08s]  But that's what we're trying to do.\n",
            "[3674.08s -> 3675.52s]  Do you think GPT-4 is an AGI?\n",
            "[3676.16s -> 3685.60s]  I think if it is, just like with the UFO videos, we wouldn't know immediately.\n",
            "[3687.36s -> 3688.88s]  I think it's actually hard to know that.\n",
            "[3689.44s -> 3696.08s]  I've been thinking, playing with GPT-4 and thinking, how would I know if it's an AGI\n",
            "[3696.08s -> 3696.64s]  or not?\n",
            "[3697.44s -> 3705.36s]  Because I think in terms of, to put it in a different way, I think it's a very, very\n",
            "[3705.68s -> 3705.76s]  hard question.\n",
            "[3705.76s -> 3708.96s]  How much of AGI is the interface I have with the thing?\n",
            "[3710.16s -> 3713.84s]  And how much of it is the actual wisdom inside of it?\n",
            "[3714.64s -> 3721.44s]  Like part of me thinks that you can have a model that's capable of super intelligence,\n",
            "[3722.24s -> 3724.16s]  and it just hasn't been quite unlocked.\n",
            "[3724.96s -> 3730.00s]  What I saw with ChatGPT, just doing that little bit of RL with human feedback, makes the thing\n",
            "[3730.00s -> 3733.12s]  somehow much more impressive, much more usable.\n",
            "[3733.12s -> 3736.56s]  So maybe if you have a few more tricks, like you said, there's hundreds of tricks inside\n",
            "[3736.56s -> 3741.52s]  OpenAI, a few more tricks and all of a sudden, holy shit, this thing.\n",
            "[3741.52s -> 3745.84s]  So I think that GPT-4, although quite impressive, is definitely not an AGI.\n",
            "[3745.84s -> 3747.60s]  But isn't it remarkable we're having this debate?\n",
            "[3748.48s -> 3750.00s]  So what's your intuition why it's not?\n",
            "[3751.60s -> 3755.52s]  I think we're getting into the phase where specific definitions of AGI really matter.\n",
            "[3756.80s -> 3760.56s]  Or we just say, I know it when I see it, and I'm not even going to bother with the definition.\n",
            "[3761.44s -> 3770.64s]  But under the I know it when I see it, it doesn't feel that close to me.\n",
            "[3775.04s -> 3779.28s]  If I were reading a sci-fi book, and there was a character that was an AGI,\n",
            "[3779.28s -> 3782.88s]  and that character was GPT-4, I'd be like, well, this is a shitty book.\n",
            "[3783.68s -> 3784.72s]  You know, that's not very cool.\n",
            "[3785.44s -> 3786.80s]  I would have hoped we had done better.\n",
            "[3787.60s -> 3790.08s]  To me, some of the human factors are important here.\n",
            "[3791.28s -> 3794.96s]  Do you think GPT-4 is conscious?\n",
            "[3795.84s -> 3797.28s]  I think no, but...\n",
            "[3798.08s -> 3800.48s]  I asked GPT-4 and of course it says no.\n",
            "[3800.48s -> 3801.84s]  Do you think GPT-4 is conscious?\n",
            "[3806.40s -> 3811.12s]  I think it knows how to fake consciousness, yes.\n",
            "[3811.12s -> 3812.32s]  How to fake consciousness?\n",
            "[3812.32s -> 3812.82s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[3813.76s -> 3818.24s]  If you provide the right interface and the right prompts.\n",
            "[3818.24s -> 3821.04s]  It definitely can answer as if it were.\n",
            "[3821.04s -> 3823.20s]  Yeah, and then it starts getting weird.\n",
            "[3823.84s -> 3827.60s]  It's like, what is the difference between pretending to be conscious and conscious?\n",
            "[3827.60s -> 3830.80s]  I mean, you don't know, obviously, we can go to like the freshman\n",
            "[3831.52s -> 3833.76s]  year dorm late at Saturday night kind of thing.\n",
            "[3833.76s -> 3836.96s]  You don't know that you're not a GPT-4 rollout in some advanced simulation.\n",
            "[3836.96s -> 3838.16s]  Yeah, yes.\n",
            "[3838.16s -> 3841.52s]  So, if we're willing to go to that level, sure.\n",
            "[3841.52s -> 3842.72s]  I live in that level.\n",
            "[3843.84s -> 3845.84s]  But that's an important level.\n",
            "[3846.80s -> 3847.52s]  That's an important...\n",
            "[3849.44s -> 3854.80s]  That's a really important level because one of the things that makes it not conscious is\n",
            "[3854.80s -> 3859.36s]  declaring that it's a computer program, therefore it can't be conscious, so I'm not going to...\n",
            "[3859.36s -> 3860.80s]  I'm not even going to acknowledge it.\n",
            "[3861.76s -> 3864.32s]  But that just puts it in the category of other.\n",
            "[3864.32s -> 3868.48s]  I believe AI can be conscious.\n",
            "[3869.92s -> 3873.20s]  So then the question is, what would it look like when it's conscious?\n",
            "[3874.08s -> 3875.12s]  What would it behave like?\n",
            "[3876.00s -> 3880.24s]  And it would probably say things like, first of all, I am conscious.\n",
            "[3880.88s -> 3888.40s]  Second of all, display capability of suffering, an understanding of self,\n",
            "[3890.40s -> 3897.84s]  of having some memory of itself and maybe interactions with you.\n",
            "[3897.84s -> 3900.40s]  Maybe there's a personalization aspect to it.\n",
            "[3900.40s -> 3904.08s]  And I think all of those capabilities are interface capabilities,\n",
            "[3904.16s -> 3907.68s]  not fundamental aspects of the actual knowledge inside the neural net.\n",
            "[3908.80s -> 3910.88s]  Maybe I can just share a few disconnected thoughts here.\n",
            "[3911.52s -> 3917.20s]  But I'll tell you something that Ilya said to me once a long time ago that has stuck in my head.\n",
            "[3917.92s -> 3919.04s]  Ilya Sutskever.\n",
            "[3919.04s -> 3924.00s]  Yes, my co-founder and the chief scientist of OpenAI and sort of legend in the field.\n",
            "[3925.76s -> 3928.24s]  We were talking about how you would know if a model were conscious or not.\n",
            "[3929.20s -> 3934.16s]  And I've heard many ideas thrown around, but he said one that I think is interesting.\n",
            "[3934.72s -> 3942.16s]  If you trained a model on a dataset that you were extremely careful to have no mentions\n",
            "[3942.16s -> 3948.00s]  of consciousness or anything close to it in the training process, like not only was the\n",
            "[3948.00s -> 3953.12s]  word never there, but nothing about the sort of subjective experience of it or related concepts.\n",
            "[3953.68s -> 3964.88s]  And then you started talking to that model about, here are some things that you weren't\n",
            "[3964.88s -> 3965.60s]  trained about.\n",
            "[3965.60s -> 3969.04s]  And for most of them, the model was like, I have no idea what you're talking about.\n",
            "[3969.04s -> 3975.84s]  But then you asked it, you sort of described the experience, the subjective experience\n",
            "[3975.84s -> 3976.64s]  of consciousness.\n",
            "[3977.20s -> 3980.24s]  And the model immediately responded, unlike the other questions,\n",
            "[3980.24s -> 3982.00s]  yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.\n",
            "[3982.24s -> 3984.00s]  That would update me somewhat.\n",
            "[3985.84s -> 3991.04s]  I don't know, because that's more in the space of facts versus like emotions.\n",
            "[3991.60s -> 3993.04s]  I don't think consciousness is an emotion.\n",
            "[3994.80s -> 4000.72s]  I think consciousness is the ability to sort of experience this world really deeply.\n",
            "[4000.72s -> 4003.12s]  There's a movie called Ex Machina.\n",
            "[4003.92s -> 4005.04s]  I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it.\n",
            "[4005.04s -> 4005.60s]  You haven't seen it?\n",
            "[4005.60s -> 4006.10s]  No.\n",
            "[4006.64s -> 4009.04s]  The director, Alex Garland, who I had a,\n",
            "[4009.76s -> 4013.04s]  the director, Alex Garland, who I had a conversation.\n",
            "[4013.04s -> 4018.80s]  So it's where AGI system is built, embodied in the body of a woman.\n",
            "[4019.84s -> 4026.48s]  And something he doesn't make explicit, but he said, he put in the movie without describing\n",
            "[4026.48s -> 4033.52s]  why, but at the end of the movie, spoiler alert, when the AI escapes, the woman escapes,\n",
            "[4034.08s -> 4038.64s]  she smiles for nobody, for no audience.\n",
            "[4040.48s -> 4044.88s]  She smiles at the freedom she's experiencing.\n",
            "[4045.84s -> 4048.24s]  Experiencing, I don't know, anthropomorphizing.\n",
            "[4048.24s -> 4053.92s]  But he said the smile to me was the, was passing the Turing test for consciousness.\n",
            "[4053.92s -> 4055.68s]  That you smile for no audience.\n",
            "[4056.24s -> 4057.36s]  You smile for yourself.\n",
            "[4058.00s -> 4058.96s]  It's an interesting thought.\n",
            "[4059.28s -> 4060.32s]  It's an interesting thought.\n",
            "[4061.36s -> 4065.44s]  It's like you take in an experience for the experience's sake.\n",
            "[4066.08s -> 4066.58s]  I don't know.\n",
            "[4068.08s -> 4072.24s]  That seemed more like consciousness versus the ability to convince somebody else that\n",
            "[4072.24s -> 4072.88s]  you're conscious.\n",
            "[4073.84s -> 4076.96s]  And that feels more like a realm of emotion versus facts.\n",
            "[4076.96s -> 4078.72s]  But yes, if it knows...\n",
            "[4078.72s -> 4085.60s]  So I think there's many other tasks, tests like that, that we could look at too.\n",
            "[4086.16s -> 4095.84s]  But, you know, my personal belief's consciousness is if something very strange is going on.\n",
            "[4095.84s -> 4098.08s]  I'll just say that.\n",
            "[4098.08s -> 4103.44s]  Do you think it's attached to the particular medium of the human brain?\n",
            "[4103.44s -> 4105.12s]  Do you think an AI can be conscious?\n",
            "[4106.64s -> 4111.76s]  I'm certainly willing to believe that consciousness is somehow the fundamental substrate and we're\n",
            "[4111.76s -> 4113.76s]  all just in the dream or the simulation or whatever.\n",
            "[4113.76s -> 4119.60s]  I think it's interesting how much sort of the Silicon Valley religion of the simulation\n",
            "[4119.60s -> 4124.56s]  has gotten close to like Brahman and how little space there is between them.\n",
            "[4125.76s -> 4127.28s]  But from these very different directions.\n",
            "[4127.28s -> 4128.56s]  So like maybe that's what's going on.\n",
            "[4129.28s -> 4135.68s]  But if it is like physical reality as we understand it and all of the rules of the game and what\n",
            "[4135.68s -> 4138.72s]  we think they are, then there's something.\n",
            "[4138.72s -> 4140.00s]  I still think it's something very strange.\n",
            "[4140.32s -> 4144.00s]  Just to linger on the alignment problem a little bit, maybe the control problem.\n",
            "[4144.96s -> 4150.72s]  What are the different ways you think AGI might go wrong that concern you?\n",
            "[4150.72s -> 4156.00s]  You said that fear, a little bit of fear is very appropriate here.\n",
            "[4156.00s -> 4159.92s]  You've been very transparent about being mostly excited but also scared.\n",
            "[4159.92s -> 4163.20s]  I think it's weird when people like think it's like a big dunk that I say like I'm a\n",
            "[4163.20s -> 4166.72s]  little bit afraid and I think it'd be crazy not to be a little bit afraid.\n",
            "[4166.96s -> 4168.80s]  And I empathize with people who are a lot afraid.\n",
            "[4170.40s -> 4174.32s]  What do you think about that moment of a system becoming super intelligent?\n",
            "[4174.32s -> 4175.28s]  Do you think you would know?\n",
            "[4177.28s -> 4180.64s]  The current worries that I have are that\n",
            "[4183.20s -> 4190.24s]  there are going to be disinformation problems or economic shocks or something else at a\n",
            "[4190.24s -> 4193.36s]  level far beyond anything we're prepared for.\n",
            "[4194.24s -> 4196.16s]  That doesn't require super intelligence.\n",
            "[4196.16s -> 4200.00s]  That doesn't require a super deep alignment problem and the machine waking up and trying\n",
            "[4200.00s -> 4200.56s]  to deceive us.\n",
            "[4202.80s -> 4205.92s]  I don't think that gets enough attention.\n",
            "[4207.28s -> 4208.24s]  It's starting to get more, I guess.\n",
            "[4209.12s -> 4216.72s]  These systems deployed at scale can shift the winds of geopolitics and so on.\n",
            "[4216.72s -> 4220.24s]  How would we know if on Twitter we were mostly having\n",
            "[4221.04s -> 4226.72s]  LLMs direct the whatever's flowing through that hive mind?\n",
            "[4228.16s -> 4230.96s]  Yeah, on Twitter and then perhaps beyond.\n",
            "[4230.96s -> 4233.44s]  And then as on Twitter, so everywhere else eventually.\n",
            "[4234.80s -> 4235.68s]  Yeah, how would we know?\n",
            "[4236.24s -> 4238.00s]  My statement is we wouldn't.\n",
            "[4239.20s -> 4240.96s]  And that's a real danger.\n",
            "[4242.00s -> 4243.44s]  How do you prevent that danger?\n",
            "[4243.44s -> 4245.68s]  I think there's a lot of things you can try.\n",
            "[4245.76s -> 4249.44s]  But at this point, it is a certainty.\n",
            "[4249.44s -> 4255.04s]  There are soon going to be a lot of capable open source LLMs with very few to none, no\n",
            "[4255.04s -> 4256.08s]  safety controls on them.\n",
            "[4257.36s -> 4262.64s]  And so you can try with regulatory approaches.\n",
            "[4263.28s -> 4266.32s]  You can try with using more powerful AIs to detect this stuff happening.\n",
            "[4267.28s -> 4269.28s]  I'd like us to start trying a lot of things very soon.\n",
            "[4270.16s -> 4274.48s]  How do you under this presentation, how do you under this situation, how do you under\n",
            "[4275.28s -> 4280.40s]  this pressure that there's going to be a lot of open source, there's going to be a lot\n",
            "[4280.40s -> 4287.04s]  of large language models, under this pressure, how do you continue prioritizing safety?\n",
            "[4287.60s -> 4290.08s]  Versus, I mean, there's several pressures.\n",
            "[4290.08s -> 4297.84s]  So one of them is a market driven pressure from other companies, Google, Apple, Meta,\n",
            "[4297.84s -> 4299.12s]  and smaller companies.\n",
            "[4299.12s -> 4301.04s]  How do you resist the pressure from that?\n",
            "[4301.04s -> 4302.80s]  Or how do you navigate that pressure?\n",
            "[4302.80s -> 4305.36s]  You stick with what you believe in, you stick to your mission.\n",
            "[4305.36s -> 4310.24s]  You know, I'm sure people will get ahead of us in all sorts of ways and take shortcuts\n",
            "[4310.24s -> 4310.96s]  we're not going to take.\n",
            "[4312.32s -> 4314.80s]  And we just aren't going to do that.\n",
            "[4314.80s -> 4316.64s]  How do you outcompete them?\n",
            "[4317.68s -> 4321.28s]  I think there's going to be many AGIs in the world, so we don't have to like outcompete\n",
            "[4321.28s -> 4321.76s]  everyone.\n",
            "[4322.48s -> 4323.52s]  We're going to contribute one.\n",
            "[4324.72s -> 4326.16s]  Other people are going to contribute some.\n",
            "[4326.88s -> 4331.84s]  I think multiple AGIs in the world with some differences in how they're built and what\n",
            "[4331.84s -> 4333.12s]  they do and what they're focused on.\n",
            "[4333.68s -> 4334.88s]  I think that's good.\n",
            "[4336.40s -> 4341.92s]  We have a very unusual structure, so we don't have this incentive to capture unlimited value.\n",
            "[4341.92s -> 4345.12s]  I worry about the people who do, but you know, hopefully it's all going to work out.\n",
            "[4345.84s -> 4351.28s]  But we're a weird org and we're good at resisting pressure.\n",
            "[4351.28s -> 4355.20s]  We have been a misunderstood and badly mocked org for a long time.\n",
            "[4355.36s -> 4362.72s]  When we started, we announced the org at the end of 2015 and said we were going to work\n",
            "[4362.72s -> 4365.60s]  on AGI, people thought we were batshit insane.\n",
            "[4368.08s -> 4377.28s]  I remember at the time, an eminent AI scientist at a large industrial AI lab was DMing individual\n",
            "[4377.28s -> 4382.00s]  reporters, being like, you know, these people aren't very good and it's ridiculous to talk\n",
            "[4382.00s -> 4384.32s]  about AGI and I can't believe you're giving them time of day.\n",
            "[4385.12s -> 4389.68s]  That was the level of pettiness and rancor in the field at a new group of people saying\n",
            "[4389.68s -> 4390.80s]  we're going to try to build AGI.\n",
            "[4391.52s -> 4397.36s]  So OpenAI and DeepMind was a small collection of folks who were brave enough to talk about\n",
            "[4397.36s -> 4401.44s]  AGI in the face of mockery.\n",
            "[4402.16s -> 4403.44s]  We don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[4404.32s -> 4405.68s]  Don't get mocked as much now.\n",
            "[4406.64s -> 4418.32s]  So speaking about the structure of the org, so OpenAI went, stopped being non-profit or\n",
            "[4418.32s -> 4420.24s]  split up in 2020.\n",
            "[4420.24s -> 4421.44s]  Can you describe that whole process?\n",
            "[4421.44s -> 4423.60s]  Yeah, so we started as a non-profit.\n",
            "[4424.16s -> 4428.80s]  We learned early on that we were going to need far more capital than we were able to\n",
            "[4428.80s -> 4429.84s]  raise as a non-profit.\n",
            "[4430.80s -> 4432.80s]  Our non-profit is still fully in charge.\n",
            "[4433.36s -> 4438.56s]  There is a subsidiary capped profit so that our investors and employees can earn a certain\n",
            "[4438.56s -> 4439.28s]  fixed return.\n",
            "[4440.24s -> 4442.96s]  And then beyond that, everything else flows to the non-profit.\n",
            "[4442.96s -> 4448.08s]  And the non-profit is like in voting control, lets us make a bunch of non-standard decisions,\n",
            "[4449.20s -> 4453.44s]  can cancel equity, can do a whole bunch of other things, can let us merge with another\n",
            "[4453.44s -> 4460.32s]  org, protects us from making decisions that are not in any shareholder's interest.\n",
            "[4461.28s -> 4466.88s]  So I think as a structure, it has been important to a lot of the decisions we've made.\n",
            "[4466.88s -> 4473.44s]  What went into that decision process for taking a leap from non-profit to capped for-profit?\n",
            "[4475.36s -> 4477.28s]  What are the pros and cons you were deciding at the time?\n",
            "[4477.28s -> 4478.88s]  I mean, this was 2019.\n",
            "[4478.88s -> 4485.28s]  It was really like to do what we needed to go do, we had tried and failed enough to raise\n",
            "[4485.28s -> 4486.56s]  the money as a non-profit.\n",
            "[4486.56s -> 4487.92s]  We didn't see a path forward there.\n",
            "[4488.48s -> 4492.88s]  So we needed some of the benefits of capitalism, but not too much.\n",
            "[4492.88s -> 4495.92s]  I remember at the time someone said, as a non-profit, not enough will happen.\n",
            "[4496.48s -> 4498.08s]  As a for-profit, too much will happen.\n",
            "[4498.64s -> 4500.40s]  So we need this sort of strange intermediate.\n",
            "[4502.08s -> 4509.76s]  What you kind of had this offhand comment of you worry about the uncapped companies that\n",
            "[4509.76s -> 4510.72s]  play with AGI.\n",
            "[4511.76s -> 4513.60s]  Can you elaborate on the worry here?\n",
            "[4513.68s -> 4520.16s]  Because AGI, out of all the technologies we have in our hands, the potential to make is\n",
            "[4520.16s -> 4523.52s]  a, the cap is 100x for open AI.\n",
            "[4523.52s -> 4524.24s]  It started that.\n",
            "[4524.24s -> 4526.16s]  It's much, much lower for new investors now.\n",
            "[4527.60s -> 4529.84s]  AGI can make a lot more than 100x.\n",
            "[4529.84s -> 4530.24s]  For sure.\n",
            "[4531.04s -> 4536.80s]  So how do you, like how do you compete, like stepping outside of open AI, how do you look\n",
            "[4536.80s -> 4543.12s]  at a world where Google is playing, where Apple and Meta are playing?\n",
            "[4543.12s -> 4545.28s]  We can't control what other people are going to do.\n",
            "[4546.08s -> 4551.76s]  We can try to like build something and talk about it and influence others and provide value\n",
            "[4551.76s -> 4556.48s]  and good systems for the world, but they're going to do what they're going to do.\n",
            "[4557.20s -> 4567.28s]  Now, I think right now there's like extremely fast and not super deliberate motion inside\n",
            "[4567.28s -> 4573.20s]  of some of these companies, but already I think people are, as they see the rate of\n",
            "[4573.20s -> 4578.00s]  progress, already people are grappling with what's at stake here.\n",
            "[4578.00s -> 4579.60s]  And I think the better angels are going to win out.\n",
            "[4581.04s -> 4584.96s]  Can you elaborate on that, the better angels of individuals, the individuals within the\n",
            "[4584.96s -> 4585.76s]  companies?\n",
            "[4585.76s -> 4590.48s]  But, you know, the incentives of capitalism to create and capture unlimited value,\n",
            "[4592.08s -> 4596.64s]  I'm a little afraid of, but again, no, I think no one wants to destroy the world.\n",
            "[4596.64s -> 4599.04s]  No one wakes up saying like, today I want to destroy the world.\n",
            "[4599.04s -> 4601.52s]  So we've got the Malik problem.\n",
            "[4601.52s -> 4603.76s]  On the other hand, we've got people who are very aware of that.\n",
            "[4603.76s -> 4608.56s]  And I think a lot of healthy conversation about how can we collaborate to minimize\n",
            "[4610.16s -> 4611.68s]  some of these very scary downsides.\n",
            "[4614.32s -> 4616.24s]  Well, nobody wants to destroy the world.\n",
            "[4616.24s -> 4617.76s]  Let me ask you a tough question.\n",
            "[4617.76s -> 4626.08s]  So you are very likely to be one of, not the person that creates AGI.\n",
            "[4627.12s -> 4628.00s]  One of.\n",
            "[4628.00s -> 4628.80s]  One of.\n",
            "[4628.80s -> 4633.92s]  And even then, like we're on a team of many, there'll be many teams, several teams.\n",
            "[4633.92s -> 4636.40s]  Small number of people, nevertheless, relative.\n",
            "[4637.12s -> 4640.88s]  I do think it's strange that it's maybe a few tens of thousands of people in the world,\n",
            "[4640.88s -> 4642.32s]  a few thousands of people in the world.\n",
            "[4642.88s -> 4648.16s]  But there will be a room with a few folks who are like, holy shit.\n",
            "[4648.16s -> 4649.92s]  That happens more often than you would think now.\n",
            "[4649.92s -> 4650.72s]  I understand.\n",
            "[4650.72s -> 4651.52s]  I understand this.\n",
            "[4652.48s -> 4653.36s]  I understand this.\n",
            "[4653.36s -> 4654.96s]  But yes, there will be more such rooms.\n",
            "[4654.96s -> 4657.60s]  Which is a beautiful place to be in the world.\n",
            "[4658.24s -> 4659.92s]  Terrifying, but mostly beautiful.\n",
            "[4660.64s -> 4666.96s]  So that might make you and a handful of folks, the most powerful humans on earth.\n",
            "[4667.68s -> 4669.68s]  Do you worry that power might corrupt you?\n",
            "[4670.64s -> 4671.12s]  For sure.\n",
            "[4672.00s -> 4672.88s]  Look, I don't.\n",
            "[4674.88s -> 4683.04s]  I think you want decisions about this technology and certainly decisions about\n",
            "[4684.16s -> 4688.96s]  who is running this technology to become increasingly democratic over time.\n",
            "[4689.60s -> 4691.36s]  We haven't figured out quite how to do this.\n",
            "[4692.80s -> 4698.88s]  But part of the reason for deploying like this is to get the world to have time to adapt\n",
            "[4699.52s -> 4704.24s]  and to reflect and to think about this, to pass regulation for institutions to come up with new\n",
            "[4704.24s -> 4706.88s]  norms for the people working on it together.\n",
            "[4706.88s -> 4712.16s]  That is a huge part of why we deploy, even though many of the AI safety people you referenced\n",
            "[4712.16s -> 4713.36s]  earlier think it's really bad.\n",
            "[4713.36s -> 4716.08s]  Even they acknowledge that this is of some benefit.\n",
            "[4716.48s -> 4722.32s]  But I think any version of one person is in control of this is really bad.\n",
            "[4722.96s -> 4724.24s]  So trying to distribute the power.\n",
            "[4724.24s -> 4728.64s]  I don't have and I don't want like any like super voting power or any special like that.\n",
            "[4728.64s -> 4730.96s]  You know, I'm not like control of the board or anything like that.\n",
            "[4730.96s -> 4731.52s]  But anyway.\n",
            "[4735.52s -> 4738.16s]  But AGI, if created, has a lot of power.\n",
            "[4738.16s -> 4739.04s]  How do you think we're doing?\n",
            "[4739.04s -> 4740.80s]  Like, honest, how do you think we're doing so far?\n",
            "[4740.80s -> 4742.08s]  Like, how do you think our decisions are?\n",
            "[4742.08s -> 4744.08s]  Like, do you think we're making things not better or worse?\n",
            "[4744.08s -> 4744.88s]  What can we do better?\n",
            "[4745.52s -> 4748.40s]  Well, the things I really like, because I know a lot of folks at OpenAI,\n",
            "[4749.12s -> 4752.72s]  the thing I really like is the transparency, everything you're saying, which is like\n",
            "[4752.72s -> 4760.72s]  failing publicly, writing papers, releasing different kinds of information about AI.\n",
            "[4760.72s -> 4762.00s]  And I think that's really important.\n",
            "[4762.72s -> 4770.00s]  Writing papers, releasing different kinds of information about the safety concerns involved,\n",
            "[4771.12s -> 4774.00s]  doing it out in the open is great.\n",
            "[4775.20s -> 4778.88s]  Because especially in contrast to some other companies that are not doing that,\n",
            "[4778.88s -> 4780.40s]  they're being more closed.\n",
            "[4781.20s -> 4783.76s]  That said, you could be more open.\n",
            "[4783.76s -> 4785.44s]  Do you think we should open source GPT-4?\n",
            "[4786.24s -> 4790.24s]  My personal opinion, because I know people at OpenAI, is no.\n",
            "[4790.88s -> 4792.88s]  What does knowing the people at OpenAI have to do with it?\n",
            "[4792.88s -> 4794.32s]  Because I know they're good people.\n",
            "[4794.32s -> 4795.28s]  I know a lot of people.\n",
            "[4795.28s -> 4796.72s]  I know they're good human beings.\n",
            "[4797.76s -> 4799.92s]  From a perspective of people that don't know the human beings,\n",
            "[4799.92s -> 4804.96s]  there's a concern of a super powerful technology in the hands of a few that's closed.\n",
            "[4804.96s -> 4807.84s]  It's closed in some sense, but we give more access to it.\n",
            "[4807.84s -> 4808.40s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4808.40s -> 4810.88s]  And like, if this had just been Googled,\n",
            "[4810.96s -> 4813.76s]  it's very unlikely that anyone would have put this API out.\n",
            "[4813.76s -> 4814.96s]  There's PR risk with it.\n",
            "[4814.96s -> 4815.52s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4815.52s -> 4817.36s]  I get personal threats because of it all the time.\n",
            "[4817.36s -> 4819.36s]  I think most companies wouldn't have done this.\n",
            "[4819.92s -> 4822.24s]  So maybe we didn't go as open as people wanted,\n",
            "[4822.24s -> 4824.96s]  but we've distributed it pretty broadly.\n",
            "[4824.96s -> 4827.68s]  You personally, in OpenAI as a culture,\n",
            "[4827.68s -> 4832.00s]  is not so nervous about PR risk and all that kind of stuff.\n",
            "[4832.00s -> 4834.72s]  You're more nervous about the risk of the actual technology.\n",
            "[4834.72s -> 4835.28s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4835.28s -> 4837.84s]  And you're more nervous about the risk of the technology itself.\n",
            "[4838.48s -> 4843.36s]  You're more nervous about the risk of the actual technology, and you reveal that.\n",
            "[4844.96s -> 4848.88s]  The nervousness that people have is because it's such early days of the technology,\n",
            "[4848.88s -> 4850.40s]  is that you will close off over time.\n",
            "[4850.40s -> 4852.32s]  It's the thing that's more and more powerful.\n",
            "[4852.32s -> 4857.84s]  My nervousness is you get attacked so much by fear-mongering clickbait journalism,\n",
            "[4857.84s -> 4859.68s]  that you're like, why the hell do I need to deal with this?\n",
            "[4859.68s -> 4862.16s]  I think the clickbait journalism bothers you more than it bothers me.\n",
            "[4863.04s -> 4865.20s]  No, I'm third-person bothered.\n",
            "[4866.00s -> 4866.72s]  I appreciate that.\n",
            "[4867.36s -> 4868.24s]  I feel all right about it.\n",
            "[4868.24s -> 4870.48s]  Of all the things I lose sleep over, it's not high on the list.\n",
            "[4870.48s -> 4871.28s]  Because it's important.\n",
            "[4871.28s -> 4874.64s]  There's a handful of companies, a handful of folks that are really pushing this forward.\n",
            "[4874.64s -> 4880.00s]  They're amazing folks, and I don't want them to become cynical about the rest of the world.\n",
            "[4880.00s -> 4885.20s]  I think people at OpenAI feel the weight of responsibility of what we're doing.\n",
            "[4885.20s -> 4889.28s]  And yeah, it would be nice if journalists were nicer to us,\n",
            "[4889.28s -> 4891.68s]  and Twitter trolls give us more benefit of the doubt.\n",
            "[4892.24s -> 4896.40s]  But I think we have a lot of resolve in what we're doing and why.\n",
            "[4897.44s -> 4898.48s]  And the importance of it.\n",
            "[4900.32s -> 4904.08s]  But I really would love, and I ask this of a lot of people, not just of cameras rolling,\n",
            "[4904.08s -> 4906.16s]  any feedback you've got for how we can be doing better.\n",
            "[4906.16s -> 4907.92s]  We're in uncharted waters here.\n",
            "[4907.92s -> 4910.56s]  Talking to smart people is how we figure out what to do better.\n",
            "[4911.20s -> 4912.24s]  How do you take feedback?\n",
            "[4912.24s -> 4913.84s]  Do you take feedback from Twitter also?\n",
            "[4914.80s -> 4916.24s]  Because the sea, the waterfall.\n",
            "[4916.24s -> 4917.84s]  My Twitter is unreadable.\n",
            "[4918.88s -> 4920.00s]  So sometimes I do.\n",
            "[4920.00s -> 4922.48s]  I can take a sample, a cup out of the waterfall.\n",
            "[4923.92s -> 4926.16s]  But I mostly take it from conversations like this.\n",
            "[4927.04s -> 4930.96s]  Speaking of feedback, somebody you know well, you've worked together closely\n",
            "[4930.96s -> 4933.84s]  on some of the ideas behind OpenAI is Elon Musk.\n",
            "[4933.84s -> 4935.60s]  You have agreed on a lot of things.\n",
            "[4935.60s -> 4937.68s]  You've disagreed on some things.\n",
            "[4937.68s -> 4940.96s]  What have been some interesting things you've agreed and disagreed on?\n",
            "[4941.60s -> 4944.24s]  Speaking of a fun debate on Twitter.\n",
            "[4945.04s -> 4950.88s]  I think we agree on the magnitude of the downside of AGI.\n",
            "[4950.88s -> 4959.28s]  And the need to get not only safety right, but get to a world where people are much better off\n",
            "[4961.28s -> 4964.32s]  because AGI exists than if AGI had never been built.\n",
            "[4965.36s -> 4965.86s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[4967.44s -> 4968.40s]  What do you disagree on?\n",
            "[4969.76s -> 4974.56s]  Elon is obviously attacking us some on Twitter right now on a few different vectors.\n",
            "[4974.80s -> 4983.36s]  I have empathy because I believe he is, understandably so, really stressed about AGI safety.\n",
            "[4984.24s -> 4988.40s]  I'm sure there are some other motivations going on too, but that's definitely one of them.\n",
            "[4992.40s -> 4998.48s]  I saw this video of Elon a long time ago talking about SpaceX.\n",
            "[4998.48s -> 5000.32s]  Maybe he's on some news show.\n",
            "[5001.12s -> 5010.64s]  And a lot of early pioneers in space were really bashing SpaceX and maybe Elon too.\n",
            "[5014.00s -> 5016.80s]  He was visibly very hurt by that and said,\n",
            "[5018.16s -> 5023.04s]  you know, those guys are heroes of mine and it sucks and I wish they would see how hard we're\n",
            "[5023.04s -> 5023.54s]  trying.\n",
            "[5024.40s -> 5026.64s]  I definitely grew up with Elon as a hero of mine.\n",
            "[5026.96s -> 5032.56s]  You know, despite him being a jerk on Twitter, whatever, I'm happy he exists in the world.\n",
            "[5033.36s -> 5042.00s]  But I wish he would do more to look at the hard work we're doing to get this stuff right.\n",
            "[5042.96s -> 5044.00s]  A little bit more love.\n",
            "[5045.20s -> 5048.00s]  What do you admire in the name of love, Abadi Elmusk?\n",
            "[5048.96s -> 5049.92s]  I mean, so much, right?\n",
            "[5050.16s -> 5056.16s]  He has driven the world forward in important ways.\n",
            "[5056.16s -> 5061.76s]  I think we will get to electric vehicles much faster than we would have if he didn't exist.\n",
            "[5061.76s -> 5064.88s]  I think we'll get to space much faster than we would have if he didn't exist.\n",
            "[5065.84s -> 5072.16s]  And as a sort of like citizen of the world, I'm very appreciative of that.\n",
            "[5072.80s -> 5078.80s]  Also, being a jerk on Twitter aside, in many instances he's like a very funny and warm guy.\n",
            "[5079.92s -> 5086.80s]  And some of the jerk on Twitter thing, as a fan of humanity laid out in its full complexity\n",
            "[5086.80s -> 5089.52s]  and beauty, I enjoy the tension of ideas expressed.\n",
            "[5090.16s -> 5096.24s]  So, you know, I earlier said that I admire how transparent you are, but I like how the\n",
            "[5096.24s -> 5100.48s]  battles are happening before our eyes as opposed to everybody closing off inside boardrooms.\n",
            "[5100.48s -> 5101.44s]  It's all laid out.\n",
            "[5101.44s -> 5105.28s]  Yeah, you know, maybe I should hit back and maybe someday I will, but it's not like my\n",
            "[5105.28s -> 5106.00s]  normal style.\n",
            "[5106.96s -> 5112.88s]  It's all fascinating to watch and I think both of you are brilliant people and have\n",
            "[5112.88s -> 5118.48s]  early on for a long time really cared about AGI and had great concerns about AGI, but a\n",
            "[5118.48s -> 5119.84s]  great hope for AGI.\n",
            "[5119.84s -> 5126.24s]  And that's cool to see these big minds having those discussions, even if they're tense at\n",
            "[5126.24s -> 5126.56s]  times.\n",
            "[5127.52s -> 5131.12s]  I think it was Elon that said that GPT is too woke.\n",
            "[5133.20s -> 5134.40s]  Is GPT too woke?\n",
            "[5135.20s -> 5137.52s]  Can you still make the case that it is and not?\n",
            "[5137.52s -> 5140.88s]  This is going to our question about bias.\n",
            "[5140.88s -> 5143.28s]  Honestly, I barely know what woke means anymore.\n",
            "[5143.28s -> 5145.36s]  I did for a while and I feel like the word has morphed.\n",
            "[5145.36s -> 5151.52s]  So I will say I think it was too biased and will always be.\n",
            "[5151.52s -> 5156.08s]  There will be no one version of GPT that the world ever agrees is unbiased.\n",
            "[5157.68s -> 5164.00s]  What I think is we've made a lot, like again, even some of our harshest critics have gone\n",
            "[5164.16s -> 5168.56s]  off and been tweeting about 3.5 to 4 comparisons and being like, wow, these people really got\n",
            "[5168.56s -> 5169.36s]  a lot better.\n",
            "[5169.36s -> 5174.80s]  Not that they don't have more work to do and we certainly do, but I appreciate critics\n",
            "[5174.80s -> 5176.96s]  who display intellectual honesty like that.\n",
            "[5177.60s -> 5179.52s]  And there's been more of that than I would have thought.\n",
            "[5181.28s -> 5188.40s]  We will try to get the default version to be as neutral as possible, but as neutral\n",
            "[5188.40s -> 5191.76s]  as possible is not that neutral if you have to do it again for more than one person.\n",
            "[5192.40s -> 5197.44s]  And so this is where more steerability, more control in the hands of the user, the system\n",
            "[5197.44s -> 5201.04s]  message in particular, is I think the real path forward.\n",
            "[5201.84s -> 5205.28s]  And as you pointed out, these nuanced answers that look at something from several angles.\n",
            "[5205.28s -> 5207.92s]  Lex Delsignore Yeah, it's really, really fascinating.\n",
            "[5207.92s -> 5209.20s]  It's really fascinating.\n",
            "[5209.20s -> 5214.32s]  Is there something to be said about the employees of a company affecting the bias of the system?\n",
            "[5214.56s -> 5215.04s]  100%.\n",
            "[5216.40s -> 5224.32s]  We try to avoid the SF groupthink bubble.\n",
            "[5224.88s -> 5227.76s]  It's harder to avoid the AI groupthink bubble that follows you everywhere.\n",
            "[5227.76s -> 5229.76s]  Adam Backer There's all kinds of bubbles we live in.\n",
            "[5229.76s -> 5230.16s]  Lex Delsignore 100%.\n",
            "[5230.72s -> 5236.80s]  Yeah, I'm going on like a around the world user tour soon for a month to just go like\n",
            "[5236.80s -> 5238.72s]  talk to our users in different cities.\n",
            "[5239.52s -> 5245.44s]  And I can feel how much I'm craving doing that because I haven't done anything like\n",
            "[5245.44s -> 5247.52s]  that since in years.\n",
            "[5247.52s -> 5248.88s]  I used to do that more for YC.\n",
            "[5249.60s -> 5256.72s]  And to go talk to people in super different contexts, and it doesn't work over the internet,\n",
            "[5256.72s -> 5262.24s]  to go show up in person and sit down and go to the bars they go to and kind of walk through\n",
            "[5262.24s -> 5267.52s]  the city like they do, you learn so much and get out of the bubble so much.\n",
            "[5269.52s -> 5274.16s]  I think we are much better than any other company I know of in San Francisco for not\n",
            "[5274.16s -> 5279.60s]  falling into the kind of like SF craziness, but I'm sure we're still pretty deeply in it.\n",
            "[5279.60s -> 5282.16s]  Adam Backer But is it possible to separate the bias of\n",
            "[5282.16s -> 5284.48s]  the model versus the bias of the employees?\n",
            "[5284.48s -> 5288.08s]  Lex Delsignore The bias I'm most nervous about is the bias\n",
            "[5288.08s -> 5290.32s]  of the human feedback raters.\n",
            "[5290.32s -> 5293.28s]  Adam Backer So what's the selection of the human?\n",
            "[5293.28s -> 5297.12s]  Is there something you could speak to at a high level about the selection of the human\n",
            "[5297.12s -> 5297.52s]  raters?\n",
            "[5297.52s -> 5299.68s]  Lex Delsignore This is the part that we understand the least\n",
            "[5299.68s -> 5299.84s]  well.\n",
            "[5299.84s -> 5301.36s]  We're great at the pre-training machinery.\n",
            "[5302.16s -> 5308.16s]  We're now trying to figure out how we're going to select those people, how we'll verify that\n",
            "[5308.16s -> 5311.76s]  we get a representative sample, how we'll do different ones for different places, but\n",
            "[5311.76s -> 5313.84s]  we don't have that functionality built out yet.\n",
            "[5313.84s -> 5318.80s]  Adam Backer Such a fascinating science.\n",
            "[5318.80s -> 5321.28s]  Lex Delsignore You clearly don't want all American elite\n",
            "[5321.28s -> 5324.16s]  university students giving you your labels.\n",
            "[5324.16s -> 5325.68s]  Adam Backer Well, see, it's not about –\n",
            "[5326.16s -> 5327.76s]  Lex Delsignore I'm sorry, I just can never resist that dig.\n",
            "[5327.76s -> 5328.72s]  Adam Backer Yes, nice.\n",
            "[5330.96s -> 5336.00s]  But that's a good – there's a million heuristics you can use.\n",
            "[5336.80s -> 5343.12s]  To me, that's a shallow heuristic because any one kind of category of human that you\n",
            "[5343.12s -> 5347.20s]  would think would have certain beliefs might actually be really open-minded in an interesting\n",
            "[5347.20s -> 5347.44s]  way.\n",
            "[5347.44s -> 5352.80s]  So you have to optimize for how good you are actually answering, doing these kinds of\n",
            "[5352.80s -> 5353.76s]  rating tasks.\n",
            "[5354.40s -> 5357.28s]  How good you are at empathizing with an experience of other humans.\n",
            "[5357.28s -> 5358.16s]  Adam Backer That's a big one.\n",
            "[5358.16s -> 5361.60s]  Lex Delsignore And being able to actually like, what does\n",
            "[5361.60s -> 5366.08s]  the worldview look like for all kinds of groups of people that would answer this differently?\n",
            "[5366.08s -> 5368.16s]  I mean, I have to do that constantly.\n",
            "[5368.16s -> 5370.08s]  Adam Backer You've asked this a few times, but it's\n",
            "[5370.08s -> 5371.04s]  something I often do.\n",
            "[5371.04s -> 5376.64s]  You know, I ask people in an interview or whatever to steelman the beliefs of someone\n",
            "[5376.64s -> 5378.00s]  they really disagree with.\n",
            "[5378.00s -> 5381.44s]  And the inability of a lot of people to even pretend like they're willing to do that\n",
            "[5381.44s -> 5382.16s]  is remarkable.\n",
            "[5382.32s -> 5383.92s]  Lex Delsignore Yeah.\n",
            "[5383.92s -> 5389.44s]  What I find, unfortunately, ever since COVID even more so, that there's almost an emotional\n",
            "[5389.44s -> 5389.92s]  barrier.\n",
            "[5390.56s -> 5392.00s]  It's not even an intellectual barrier.\n",
            "[5392.00s -> 5395.28s]  Before they even get to the intellectual, there's an emotional barrier that says no.\n",
            "[5395.84s -> 5405.52s]  Anyone who might possibly believe X, they're an idiot, they're evil, they're malevolent.\n",
            "[5405.52s -> 5409.52s]  Anything you want to assign, it's like they're not even like loading in the data into their\n",
            "[5409.52s -> 5409.68s]  head.\n",
            "[5409.76s -> 5414.00s]  Look, I think we'll find out that we can make GPT systems way less biased than any\n",
            "[5414.00s -> 5414.32s]  human.\n",
            "[5414.32s -> 5414.96s]  Adam Backer Yeah.\n",
            "[5416.00s -> 5417.28s]  So hopefully without the...\n",
            "[5417.28s -> 5420.00s]  Lex Delsignore Because there won't be that emotional load\n",
            "[5420.00s -> 5420.16s]  there.\n",
            "[5420.16s -> 5421.60s]  Adam Backer Yeah, the emotional load.\n",
            "[5422.64s -> 5423.92s]  But there might be pressure.\n",
            "[5423.92s -> 5425.20s]  There might be political pressure.\n",
            "[5425.20s -> 5427.84s]  Lex Delsignore Oh, there might be pressure to make a biased\n",
            "[5427.84s -> 5428.16s]  system.\n",
            "[5428.16s -> 5432.40s]  What I meant is the technology, I think, will be capable of being much less biased.\n",
            "[5432.40s -> 5435.44s]  Adam Backer Do you anticipate, do you worry about pressures\n",
            "[5436.00s -> 5441.20s]  from outside sources, from society, from politicians, from money sources?\n",
            "[5441.20s -> 5443.36s]  Lex Delsignore I both worry about it and want it.\n",
            "[5444.00s -> 5447.60s]  Like, you know, to the point of we're in this bubble and we shouldn't make all these decisions.\n",
            "[5447.60s -> 5451.20s]  Like, we want society to have a huge degree of input here.\n",
            "[5451.20s -> 5452.96s]  That is pressure in some point, in some way.\n",
            "[5452.96s -> 5455.36s]  Adam Backer Well, there's, you know, that's what, like,\n",
            "[5455.36s -> 5463.04s]  to some degree, Twitter files have revealed that there was pressure from different organizations.\n",
            "[5463.04s -> 5468.24s]  You can see in the pandemic where the CDC or some other government organization might\n",
            "[5468.24s -> 5474.48s]  put pressure on, you know, what, we're not really sure what's true, but it's very unsafe\n",
            "[5474.48s -> 5477.28s]  to have these kinds of nuanced conversations now.\n",
            "[5477.28s -> 5478.80s]  So let's censor all topics.\n",
            "[5478.80s -> 5484.80s]  So you get a lot of those emails, like, you know, emails, all different kinds of people\n",
            "[5484.80s -> 5490.48s]  reaching out at different places to put subtle indirect pressure, direct pressure, financial,\n",
            "[5490.48s -> 5491.92s]  political pressure, all that kind of stuff.\n",
            "[5491.92s -> 5493.36s]  Like, how do you survive that?\n",
            "[5495.76s -> 5503.12s]  How much do you worry about that if GPT continues to get more and more intelligent and a source\n",
            "[5503.12s -> 5506.64s]  of information and knowledge for human civilization?\n",
            "[5506.64s -> 5509.12s]  Lex Delsignore I think there's, like, a lot of, like, quirks\n",
            "[5509.12s -> 5513.04s]  about me that make me not a great CEO for OpenAI.\n",
            "[5513.04s -> 5525.84s]  But a thing in the positive column is I think I am relatively good at not being affected\n",
            "[5525.84s -> 5527.36s]  by pressure for the sake of pressure.\n",
            "[5527.36s -> 5527.86s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[5529.84s -> 5533.92s]  By the way, beautiful statement of humility, but I have to ask, what's in the negative\n",
            "[5533.92s -> 5534.42s]  column?\n",
            "[5535.76s -> 5538.32s]  I mean, too long a list?\n",
            "[5538.32s -> 5538.82s]  There is one.\n",
            "[5539.60s -> 5540.32s]  What's a good one?\n",
            "[5540.80s -> 5544.48s]  I mean, I think I'm not a great, like, spokesperson for the AI movement.\n",
            "[5544.48s -> 5545.36s]  I'll say that.\n",
            "[5545.36s -> 5549.76s]  I think there could be, like, a more, like, there could be someone who enjoyed it more.\n",
            "[5549.76s -> 5551.60s]  There could be someone who's, like, much more charismatic.\n",
            "[5551.60s -> 5555.36s]  There could be someone who, like, connects better, I think, with people than I do.\n",
            "[5555.36s -> 5556.56s]  Christopher I'm with Chomsky on this.\n",
            "[5556.56s -> 5558.16s]  I think charisma is a dangerous thing.\n",
            "[5559.04s -> 5567.20s]  I think flaws in communication style, I think, is a feature, not a bug in general, at least\n",
            "[5567.20s -> 5569.12s]  for humans, at least for humans in power.\n",
            "[5570.00s -> 5572.32s]  I think I have, like, more serious problems than that one.\n",
            "[5578.40s -> 5586.48s]  I think I'm, like, pretty disconnected from, like, the reality of life for most people\n",
            "[5587.76s -> 5595.36s]  and trying to really not just, like, empathize with but internalize what the impact on people\n",
            "[5595.36s -> 5597.44s]  that AGI is going to have.\n",
            "[5598.32s -> 5602.00s]  I probably, like, feel that less than other people would.\n",
            "[5602.00s -> 5604.72s]  Chris That's really well put.\n",
            "[5604.72s -> 5608.48s]  And you said, like, you're going to travel across the world to empathize with different\n",
            "[5608.48s -> 5608.72s]  users.\n",
            "[5608.72s -> 5608.80s]  David Yeah, I'm excited.\n",
            "[5608.80s -> 5609.44s]  Not to empathize.\n",
            "[5609.44s -> 5614.96s]  Just to, like, I want to just, like, buy our users, our developers, our users a drink and\n",
            "[5614.96s -> 5617.60s]  say, like, tell us what you'd like to change.\n",
            "[5617.60s -> 5622.40s]  And I think one of the things we are not good, as good at as a company as I would like, is\n",
            "[5622.40s -> 5624.48s]  to be a really user-centric company.\n",
            "[5625.20s -> 5629.68s]  And I feel like by the time it gets filtered to me, it's, like, totally meaningless.\n",
            "[5629.68s -> 5632.88s]  So I really just want to go talk to a lot of our users in very different contexts.\n",
            "[5632.88s -> 5635.36s]  Chris Like you said, a drink in person, because\n",
            "[5636.88s -> 5638.64s]  I haven't actually found the right words for it.\n",
            "[5638.64s -> 5645.84s]  But I was a little afraid with the programming, emotionally.\n",
            "[5645.84s -> 5647.44s]  I don't think it makes any sense.\n",
            "[5647.44s -> 5649.12s]  David There is a real limbic response there.\n",
            "[5649.12s -> 5654.40s]  Chris GPT makes me nervous about the future, not in an AI safety way, but, like, change.\n",
            "[5655.20s -> 5655.52s]  Change.\n",
            "[5656.40s -> 5658.16s]  And, like, there's a nervousness about change.\n",
            "[5658.16s -> 5659.52s]  David More nervous than excited?\n",
            "[5659.52s -> 5663.68s]  Chris If I take away the fact that I'm an AI person\n",
            "[5663.68s -> 5666.96s]  and just a programmer, more excited, but still nervous.\n",
            "[5666.96s -> 5671.60s]  Like, yeah, nervous in brief moments, especially when sleep deprived.\n",
            "[5671.60s -> 5672.88s]  But there's a nervousness there.\n",
            "[5672.88s -> 5674.56s]  David People who say they're not nervous,\n",
            "[5675.60s -> 5676.80s]  it's hard for me to believe.\n",
            "[5676.80s -> 5679.28s]  Chris But you're right, it's excited.\n",
            "[5679.28s -> 5680.72s]  It's nervous for change.\n",
            "[5680.72s -> 5683.92s]  Nervous whenever there's significant, exciting kind of change.\n",
            "[5684.56s -> 5687.60s]  Chris You know, I've recently started using,\n",
            "[5687.60s -> 5692.24s]  I've been an Emacs person for a very long time, and I switched to VS Code as a-\n",
            "[5692.24s -> 5693.12s]  David For Copilot?\n",
            "[5693.68s -> 5697.92s]  Chris That was one of the big reasons.\n",
            "[5697.92s -> 5702.00s]  Because, like, this is where a lot of active development, of course, you can probably do\n",
            "[5702.72s -> 5705.60s]  Copilot inside Emacs.\n",
            "[5705.60s -> 5706.24s]  I mean, I'm sure I'm sure-\n",
            "[5706.24s -> 5707.44s]  David VS Code is also pretty good.\n",
            "[5707.44s -> 5709.52s]  Chris Yeah, there's a lot of, like, little,\n",
            "[5710.32s -> 5713.52s]  little things and big things that are just really good about VS Code.\n",
            "[5714.08s -> 5718.16s]  And I've been, I can happily report in all the event people just go nuts.\n",
            "[5718.16s -> 5720.64s]  But I'm very happy, it was a very happy decision.\n",
            "[5720.64s -> 5720.96s]  David I'm sorry.\n",
            "[5720.96s -> 5722.64s]  Chris But there was a lot of uncertainty.\n",
            "[5723.36s -> 5725.28s]  There's a lot of nervousness about it.\n",
            "[5725.28s -> 5729.60s]  There's fear and so on about taking that leap.\n",
            "[5729.60s -> 5731.04s]  And that's obviously a tiny leap.\n",
            "[5731.84s -> 5736.56s]  But even just the leap to actively using Copilot, like, using a generation of code,\n",
            "[5737.92s -> 5738.56s]  makes you nervous.\n",
            "[5738.56s -> 5742.00s]  But ultimately, my life is much better as a programmer.\n",
            "[5742.00s -> 5746.80s]  Purely as a programmer, a programmer of little things and big things is much better.\n",
            "[5746.80s -> 5747.68s]  But there's a nervousness.\n",
            "[5747.68s -> 5749.44s]  And I think a lot of people will experience that,\n",
            "[5750.56s -> 5753.68s]  experience that, and you will experience that by talking to them.\n",
            "[5753.68s -> 5755.52s]  And I don't know what we do with that,\n",
            "[5757.36s -> 5760.88s]  how we comfort people in the face of this uncertainty.\n",
            "[5760.88s -> 5763.52s]  Chris And you're getting more nervous, the more you use it, not less.\n",
            "[5763.52s -> 5767.36s]  David Yes, I would have to say yes, because I get\n",
            "[5767.36s -> 5768.16s]  better at using it.\n",
            "[5768.16s -> 5770.40s]  Chris The learning curve is quite steep.\n",
            "[5770.56s -> 5771.06s]  David Yeah.\n",
            "[5771.84s -> 5776.48s]  And then there's moments when you're like, oh, it generates a function beautifully.\n",
            "[5778.32s -> 5784.80s]  You sit back, both proud like a parent, but almost like proud and scared that this thing\n",
            "[5784.80s -> 5786.56s]  will be much smarter than me.\n",
            "[5787.76s -> 5791.52s]  Both pride and sadness, almost like a melancholy feeling.\n",
            "[5791.52s -> 5793.60s]  But ultimately joy, I think, yeah.\n",
            "[5793.60s -> 5799.04s]  What kind of jobs do you think GPT language models would be better than humans at?\n",
            "[5799.20s -> 5802.00s]  Like full, like does the whole thing end to end better?\n",
            "[5802.00s -> 5806.08s]  Not like what it's doing with you, where it's helping you be maybe 10 times more productive.\n",
            "[5807.28s -> 5809.04s]  Those are both good questions.\n",
            "[5809.04s -> 5813.44s]  I don't, I would say they're equivalent to me, because if I'm 10 times more productive,\n",
            "[5813.44s -> 5818.08s]  wouldn't that mean that there'll be a need for much fewer programmers in the world?\n",
            "[5818.08s -> 5819.92s]  David I think the world is going to find out that\n",
            "[5819.92s -> 5823.20s]  if you can have 10 times as much code at the same price, you can just use even more.\n",
            "[5823.20s -> 5824.64s]  Chris So write even more code.\n",
            "[5824.64s -> 5826.16s]  David The world just needs way more code.\n",
            "[5826.80s -> 5829.04s]  It is true that a lot more could be digitized.\n",
            "[5830.24s -> 5832.40s]  There could be a lot more code in a lot more stuff.\n",
            "[5832.40s -> 5834.56s]  Chris I think there's like a supply issue.\n",
            "[5834.56s -> 5836.08s]  David Yeah.\n",
            "[5836.08s -> 5840.08s]  So in terms of really replaced jobs, is that a worry for you?\n",
            "[5840.08s -> 5842.00s]  Chris It is.\n",
            "[5842.80s -> 5847.28s]  I'm trying to think of like a big category that I believe can be massively impacted.\n",
            "[5847.28s -> 5851.76s]  I guess I would say customer service is a category that I could see\n",
            "[5852.56s -> 5855.12s]  there are just way fewer jobs relatively soon.\n",
            "[5856.48s -> 5859.76s]  I'm not even certain about that, but I could believe it.\n",
            "[5859.76s -> 5865.44s]  David So like basic questions about when do I take this pill,\n",
            "[5866.00s -> 5871.12s]  if it's a drug company, or when, I don't know why I went to that, but like,\n",
            "[5871.12s -> 5873.84s]  how do I use this product, like questions, like how do I use this?\n",
            "[5873.84s -> 5876.08s]  Chris Whatever call center employees are doing now.\n",
            "[5876.08s -> 5878.16s]  David Yeah, this is not work, yeah, okay.\n",
            "[5878.16s -> 5882.32s]  Chris I want to be clear, I think like these systems will\n",
            "[5883.28s -> 5885.92s]  make a lot of jobs just go away.\n",
            "[5885.92s -> 5887.52s]  Every technological revolution does.\n",
            "[5888.16s -> 5893.04s]  They will enhance many jobs and make them much better, much more fun, much higher paid.\n",
            "[5895.76s -> 5898.32s]  And they'll create new jobs that are difficult for us to imagine,\n",
            "[5898.32s -> 5900.24s]  even if we're starting to see the first glimpses of them.\n",
            "[5900.88s -> 5907.52s]  But I heard someone last week talking about GPT-4 saying that, you know, man,\n",
            "[5908.24s -> 5912.40s]  uh, the dignity of work is just such a huge deal.\n",
            "[5912.40s -> 5916.08s]  We've really got to worry, like, even people who think they don't like their jobs,\n",
            "[5916.08s -> 5917.28s]  they really need them.\n",
            "[5917.28s -> 5919.44s]  It's really important to them and to society.\n",
            "[5920.48s -> 5924.56s]  And also, can you believe how awful it is that France is trying to raise the retirement age?\n",
            "[5926.56s -> 5931.60s]  And I think we as a society are confused about whether we want to work more or work less.\n",
            "[5932.56s -> 5937.04s]  And certainly about whether most people like their jobs and get value out of their jobs or not.\n",
            "[5937.12s -> 5937.68s]  Some people do.\n",
            "[5937.68s -> 5938.40s]  I love my job.\n",
            "[5938.40s -> 5939.36s]  I suspect you do too.\n",
            "[5940.72s -> 5941.52s]  That's a real privilege.\n",
            "[5941.52s -> 5943.12s]  Not everybody gets to say that.\n",
            "[5943.12s -> 5950.72s]  If we can move more of the world to better jobs and work to something that can be a broader concept,\n",
            "[5950.72s -> 5955.28s]  not something you have to do to be able to eat, but something you do as a creative expression\n",
            "[5955.28s -> 5959.76s]  and a way to find fulfillment and happiness, whatever else, even if those jobs look extremely\n",
            "[5959.76s -> 5962.64s]  different from the jobs of today, I think that's great.\n",
            "[5962.64s -> 5964.64s]  I'm not nervous about it at all.\n",
            "[5965.52s -> 5968.88s]  You have been a proponent of UBI, universal basic income.\n",
            "[5968.88s -> 5974.96s]  In the context of AI, can you describe your philosophy there of our human future with UBI?\n",
            "[5976.08s -> 5976.80s]  Why you like it?\n",
            "[5976.80s -> 5978.08s]  What are some limitations?\n",
            "[5978.64s -> 5982.64s]  I think it is a component of something we should pursue.\n",
            "[5982.64s -> 5984.56s]  It is not a full solution.\n",
            "[5984.56s -> 5987.12s]  I think people work for lots of reasons besides money.\n",
            "[5987.12s -> 5998.16s]  I think we are going to find incredible new jobs and society as a whole and people's individuals\n",
            "[5998.16s -> 6004.80s]  are going to get much, much richer, but as a cushion through a dramatic transition and as just\n",
            "[6006.96s -> 6009.92s]  I think the world should eliminate poverty if able to do so.\n",
            "[6010.56s -> 6016.40s]  I think it's a great thing to do as a small part of the bucket of solutions.\n",
            "[6016.40s -> 6023.84s]  I helped start a project called WorldCoin, which is a technological solution to this.\n",
            "[6023.84s -> 6030.16s]  We also have funded a large, I think maybe the largest and most comprehensive\n",
            "[6030.16s -> 6034.64s]  universal basic income study sponsored by OpenAI.\n",
            "[6036.08s -> 6039.20s]  I think it's an area we should just be looking into.\n",
            "[6040.56s -> 6043.76s]  What are some insights from that study that you gained?\n",
            "[6043.76s -> 6047.68s]  We're going to finish up at the end of this year and we'll be able to talk about it hopefully\n",
            "[6047.68s -> 6048.48s]  very early next.\n",
            "[6049.04s -> 6053.36s]  If we can linger on it, how do you think the economic and political systems will change\n",
            "[6054.32s -> 6057.20s]  as AI becomes a prevalent part of society?\n",
            "[6057.20s -> 6063.92s]  It's such an interesting sort of philosophical question looking 10, 20, 50 years from now.\n",
            "[6064.96s -> 6066.56s]  What does the economy look like?\n",
            "[6067.76s -> 6069.20s]  What does politics look like?\n",
            "[6069.84s -> 6074.64s]  Do you see significant transformations in terms of the way democracy functions even?\n",
            "[6075.20s -> 6077.68s]  I love that you asked them together because I think they're super related.\n",
            "[6077.68s -> 6082.56s]  I think the economic transformation will drive much of the political transformation here,\n",
            "[6082.56s -> 6083.52s]  not the other way around.\n",
            "[6085.44s -> 6095.28s]  My working model for the last five years has been that the two dominant changes will be that the\n",
            "[6095.84s -> 6101.04s]  cost of intelligence and the cost of energy are going over the next couple of decades to\n",
            "[6101.04s -> 6103.52s]  dramatically, dramatically fall from where they are today.\n",
            "[6104.80s -> 6110.72s]  The impact of that, and you're already seeing it with the way you now have programming ability\n",
            "[6110.72s -> 6118.16s]  beyond what you had as an individual before, is society gets much, much richer, much wealthier\n",
            "[6118.16s -> 6120.32s]  in ways that are probably hard to imagine.\n",
            "[6121.12s -> 6127.28s]  I think every time that's happened before, that economic impact has had positive\n",
            "[6127.28s -> 6129.04s]  political impact as well.\n",
            "[6129.04s -> 6130.80s]  And I think it does go the other way too.\n",
            "[6130.80s -> 6138.00s]  Like the sociopolitical values of the Enlightenment enabled the long-running technological\n",
            "[6138.56s -> 6143.52s]  revolution and scientific discovery process we've had for the past centuries.\n",
            "[6145.92s -> 6147.52s]  But I think we're just going to see more.\n",
            "[6148.40s -> 6154.96s]  I'm sure the shape will change, but I think it's this long and beautiful exponential curve.\n",
            "[6156.64s -> 6164.88s]  Do you think there will be more, I don't know what the term is, but systems that resemble\n",
            "[6164.88s -> 6166.64s]  something like democratic socialism?\n",
            "[6166.64s -> 6170.08s]  I've talked to a few folks on this podcast about these kinds of topics.\n",
            "[6170.08s -> 6170.80s]  Instinct, yes.\n",
            "[6170.80s -> 6171.36s]  I hope so.\n",
            "[6171.84s -> 6180.00s]  So that it reallocates some resources in a way that supports, kind of lifts the people\n",
            "[6180.00s -> 6180.64s]  who are struggling.\n",
            "[6180.64s -> 6184.00s]  I am a big believer in lift up the floor and don't worry about the ceiling.\n",
            "[6185.68s -> 6189.36s]  If I can test your historical knowledge.\n",
            "[6189.36s -> 6190.72s]  It's probably not going to be good, but let's try it.\n",
            "[6191.84s -> 6196.24s]  Why do you think, I come from the Soviet Union, why do you think communism in the Soviet Union\n",
            "[6196.24s -> 6197.04s]  failed?\n",
            "[6198.00s -> 6202.16s]  I recoil at the idea of living in a communist system.\n",
            "[6203.12s -> 6206.08s]  And I don't know how much of that is just the biases of the world I've\n",
            "[6206.08s -> 6212.32s]  grown up in and what I have been taught and probably more than I realize.\n",
            "[6213.04s -> 6222.16s]  But I think like more individualism, more human will, more ability to self-determine\n",
            "[6224.96s -> 6225.68s]  is important.\n",
            "[6227.04s -> 6236.16s]  And also I think the ability to try new things and not need permission and not need some\n",
            "[6236.16s -> 6243.12s]  sort of central planning, betting on human ingenuity and this sort of distributed process,\n",
            "[6244.16s -> 6247.44s]  I believe is always going to beat centralized planning.\n",
            "[6249.76s -> 6254.08s]  And I think that for all of the deep flaws of America, I think it is the greatest place\n",
            "[6254.08s -> 6257.20s]  in the world because it's the best at this.\n",
            "[6257.20s -> 6265.76s]  LBW So it's really interesting that centralized planning failed in such big ways.\n",
            "[6267.28s -> 6270.00s]  But what if hypothetically the centralized planning…\n",
            "[6270.00s -> 6272.08s]  CB It was a perfect super intelligent AGI.\n",
            "[6272.08s -> 6273.68s]  LBW Super intelligent AGI.\n",
            "[6275.92s -> 6280.88s]  Again, it might go wrong in the same kind of ways, but it might not.\n",
            "[6280.88s -> 6281.68s]  We don't really know.\n",
            "[6281.68s -> 6283.20s]  CB We don't really know.\n",
            "[6283.92s -> 6286.96s]  I expect it would be better, but would it be better than\n",
            "[6289.76s -> 6296.24s]  a hundred super intelligent or a thousand super intelligent AGIs in a liberal democratic system?\n",
            "[6296.24s -> 6297.44s]  LBW Arguably.\n",
            "[6297.44s -> 6298.32s]  CB Yes.\n",
            "[6300.16s -> 6303.76s]  Now also how much of that can happen internally in one super intelligent AGI?\n",
            "[6304.72s -> 6305.44s]  Not so obvious.\n",
            "[6305.44s -> 6309.04s]  LBW There is something about…\n",
            "[6309.04s -> 6312.32s]  right, but there is something about tension, the competition.\n",
            "[6312.88s -> 6315.12s]  But you don't know that's not happening inside one model.\n",
            "[6315.12s -> 6317.20s]  CB Yeah, that's true.\n",
            "[6318.00s -> 6325.68s]  It'd be nice if whether it's engineered in or revealed to be happening, it'd be nice for it\n",
            "[6325.68s -> 6326.40s]  to be happening.\n",
            "[6326.40s -> 6330.40s]  LBW And of course it can happen with multiple AGIs talking to each other or whatever.\n",
            "[6330.40s -> 6333.28s]  CB There's something also about…\n",
            "[6333.28s -> 6335.76s]  Stuart Russell has talked about the control problem of\n",
            "[6337.28s -> 6340.24s]  always having AGI to have some degree of uncertainty.\n",
            "[6340.72s -> 6342.88s]  Not having a dogmatic certainty to it.\n",
            "[6342.88s -> 6344.40s]  LBW That feels important.\n",
            "[6344.40s -> 6347.60s]  CB So some of that is already handled with human alignment,\n",
            "[6349.12s -> 6351.68s]  human feedback, reinforcement learning with human feedback.\n",
            "[6352.24s -> 6356.24s]  But it feels like there has to be engineered in like a hard uncertainty.\n",
            "[6356.24s -> 6359.28s]  Humility, you can put a romantic word to it.\n",
            "[6359.28s -> 6359.78s]  LBW Yeah.\n",
            "[6360.64s -> 6361.68s]  CB Do you think that's possible to do?\n",
            "[6362.96s -> 6366.08s]  LBW The definition of those words, I think the details really matter.\n",
            "[6366.08s -> 6368.00s]  But as I understand them, yes, I do.\n",
            "[6368.00s -> 6369.36s]  CB What about the off switch?\n",
            "[6370.88s -> 6373.28s]  That like big red button in the data center we don't tell anybody about.\n",
            "[6373.28s -> 6375.36s]  LBW Yeah, I don't use that with you, Stan.\n",
            "[6375.36s -> 6376.00s]  CB I'm a fan.\n",
            "[6376.00s -> 6376.64s]  My backpack.\n",
            "[6376.64s -> 6377.60s]  LBW In your backpack.\n",
            "[6378.64s -> 6380.24s]  You think that's possible to have a switch?\n",
            "[6380.24s -> 6384.40s]  You think, I mean, actually more seriously, more specifically about\n",
            "[6384.96s -> 6387.60s]  sort of rolling out of different systems.\n",
            "[6387.60s -> 6392.64s]  Do you think it's possible to roll them, unroll them, pull them back in?\n",
            "[6392.64s -> 6396.88s]  CB Yeah, I mean, we can absolutely take a model back off the internet.\n",
            "[6396.88s -> 6399.60s]  We can like take, we can turn an API off.\n",
            "[6399.60s -> 6401.28s]  LBW Isn't that something you worry about?\n",
            "[6401.28s -> 6404.80s]  Like when you release it, and millions of people are using it.\n",
            "[6404.80s -> 6410.72s]  And like you realize, holy crap, they're using it for, I don't know, worrying about the,\n",
            "[6410.72s -> 6412.64s]  like all kinds of terrible use cases.\n",
            "[6413.36s -> 6414.96s]  We do worry about that a lot.\n",
            "[6414.96s -> 6420.72s]  I mean, we try to figure out with as much red teaming and testing ahead of time as we do,\n",
            "[6422.00s -> 6423.44s]  how to avoid a lot of those.\n",
            "[6423.44s -> 6429.20s]  But I can't emphasize enough how much the collective intelligence and creativity of\n",
            "[6429.20s -> 6432.64s]  the world will beat open AI and all of the red teamers we can hire.\n",
            "[6433.28s -> 6437.12s]  So we put it out, but we put it out in a way we can make changes.\n",
            "[6437.12s -> 6441.20s]  CB In the millions of people that have used the chat, GPT and GPT,\n",
            "[6441.20s -> 6443.60s]  what have you learned about human civilization in general?\n",
            "[6444.48s -> 6446.80s]  I mean, the question I ask is, are we mostly good?\n",
            "[6448.40s -> 6452.16s]  Or is there a lot of malevolence in the human spirit?\n",
            "[6452.56s -> 6456.00s]  Well, to be clear, I don't, nor does anyone else at OpenAI,\n",
            "[6456.00s -> 6458.80s]  so they're like reading all the chat GPT messages.\n",
            "[6459.60s -> 6465.84s]  But from what I hear people using it for, at least the people I talk to,\n",
            "[6466.40s -> 6470.48s]  and from what I see on Twitter, we are definitely mostly good.\n",
            "[6471.36s -> 6478.24s]  But A, not all of us are all the time.\n",
            "[6478.32s -> 6482.24s]  And B, we really wanna push on the edges of these systems.\n",
            "[6482.96s -> 6488.16s]  And we really wanna test out some darker theories of the world.\n",
            "[6488.16s -> 6490.00s]  CB Yeah, it's very interesting.\n",
            "[6490.64s -> 6491.60s]  It's very interesting.\n",
            "[6491.60s -> 6498.00s]  And I think that actually doesn't communicate the fact that we're fundamentally dark inside,\n",
            "[6498.00s -> 6505.28s]  but we like to go to the dark places in order to maybe rediscover the light.\n",
            "[6506.24s -> 6508.48s]  It feels like dark humor is a part of that.\n",
            "[6508.48s -> 6511.12s]  Some of the darkest, some of the toughest things you go through\n",
            "[6511.12s -> 6514.72s]  if you suffer in life in a war zone, the people I've interacted with\n",
            "[6514.72s -> 6518.24s]  that are in the midst of a war, they're usually joking around.\n",
            "[6518.24s -> 6519.76s]  And they're dark jokes.\n",
            "[6519.76s -> 6520.26s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6521.52s -> 6523.44s]  So that there's something there.\n",
            "[6523.44s -> 6525.28s]  I totally agree about that tension.\n",
            "[6525.92s -> 6531.04s]  So just to the model, how do you decide what isn't misinformation?\n",
            "[6531.76s -> 6532.88s]  How do you decide what is true?\n",
            "[6532.88s -> 6536.00s]  You actually have OpenAI's internal factual performance benchmark.\n",
            "[6536.00s -> 6537.68s]  There's a lot of cool benchmarks here.\n",
            "[6538.80s -> 6541.20s]  How do you build a benchmark for what is true?\n",
            "[6542.16s -> 6542.96s]  What is truth?\n",
            "[6543.68s -> 6544.64s]  Sam Albin.\n",
            "[6544.64s -> 6546.00s]  Like math is true.\n",
            "[6546.00s -> 6549.52s]  And the origin of COVID is not agreed upon as ground truth.\n",
            "[6551.36s -> 6552.80s]  Those are the two things.\n",
            "[6552.80s -> 6556.08s]  And then there's stuff that's like, certainly not true.\n",
            "[6557.04s -> 6563.04s]  But between that first and second milestone, there's a lot of disagreement.\n",
            "[6563.04s -> 6564.64s]  And what do you look for?\n",
            "[6564.64s -> 6573.04s]  Where can a, not even just now, but in the future, where can we as a human civilization look for?\n",
            "[6573.84s -> 6574.96s]  Look to for truth?\n",
            "[6575.84s -> 6576.80s]  What do you know is true?\n",
            "[6577.76s -> 6579.04s]  What are you absolutely certain is true?\n",
            "[6579.68s -> 6584.32s]  I have generally epistemic humility about everything.\n",
            "[6584.32s -> 6587.84s]  And I'm freaked out by how little I know and understand about the world.\n",
            "[6587.84s -> 6589.92s]  So even that question is terrifying to me.\n",
            "[6592.64s -> 6596.96s]  There's a bucket of things that have a high degree of truth in this,\n",
            "[6596.96s -> 6599.60s]  which is where you would put math, a lot of math.\n",
            "[6599.60s -> 6600.10s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6600.96s -> 6603.52s]  Can't be certain, but it's good enough for this conversation we can say.\n",
            "[6603.52s -> 6604.02s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6604.64s -> 6605.60s]  But I think that's the thing.\n",
            "[6606.56s -> 6609.60s]  Can't be certain, but it's good enough for this conversation we can say math is true.\n",
            "[6610.16s -> 6610.66s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6610.80s -> 6613.44s]  I mean, some, quite a bit of physics.\n",
            "[6614.08s -> 6615.52s]  There's historical facts.\n",
            "[6617.76s -> 6619.76s]  Maybe dates of when a war started.\n",
            "[6620.48s -> 6624.48s]  There's a lot of details about military conflict inside history.\n",
            "[6625.44s -> 6630.00s]  Of course, you start to get, just read Blitzt, which is this-\n",
            "[6630.00s -> 6630.88s]  Oh, I want to read that.\n",
            "[6630.88s -> 6631.60s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6631.60s -> 6632.08s]  How was it?\n",
            "[6633.28s -> 6634.08s]  It was really good.\n",
            "[6634.16s -> 6641.44s]  It gives a theory of Nazi Germany and Hitler that so much can be described about Hitler\n",
            "[6641.44s -> 6646.56s]  in a lot of the upper echelon of Nazi Germany through the excessive use of drugs.\n",
            "[6647.44s -> 6648.40s]  Just amphetamines, right?\n",
            "[6648.40s -> 6651.92s]  Amphetamines, but also other stuff, but it's just a lot.\n",
            "[6652.80s -> 6655.20s]  And that's really interesting.\n",
            "[6655.20s -> 6656.00s]  It's really compelling.\n",
            "[6656.00s -> 6660.64s]  And for some reason, like, whoa, that's really, that would explain a lot.\n",
            "[6660.64s -> 6662.16s]  That's somehow really sticky.\n",
            "[6662.16s -> 6663.28s]  It's an idea that's sticky.\n",
            "[6663.28s -> 6668.64s]  And then you read a lot of criticism of that book later by historians, that that's actually,\n",
            "[6668.64s -> 6670.56s]  there's a lot of cherry picking going on.\n",
            "[6670.56s -> 6674.00s]  And it's actually, is using the fact that that's a very sticky explanation.\n",
            "[6674.00s -> 6677.44s]  There's something about humans that likes a very simple narrative to describe everything.\n",
            "[6677.44s -> 6678.16s]  For sure.\n",
            "[6678.16s -> 6678.64s]  And then-\n",
            "[6678.64s -> 6684.00s]  Yeah, too much amphetamines caused the war is like a great, even if not true, simple\n",
            "[6684.00s -> 6692.48s]  explanation that feels satisfying and excuses a lot of other, probably much darker, human truths.\n",
            "[6692.48s -> 6699.44s]  Yeah, the military strategy employed the atrocities, the speeches,\n",
            "[6701.76s -> 6706.08s]  just the way Hitler was as a human being, the way Hitler was as a leader, all of that could\n",
            "[6706.08s -> 6708.24s]  be explained through this one little lens.\n",
            "[6708.24s -> 6712.32s]  And it's like, well, if you say that's true, that's a really compelling truth.\n",
            "[6712.32s -> 6717.60s]  So maybe truth is, in one sense, is defined as a thing that as a collective intelligence, we\n",
            "[6718.16s -> 6721.04s]  kind of all, our brains are sticking to.\n",
            "[6721.04s -> 6725.52s]  And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a bunch of ants get together and like, yeah,\n",
            "[6725.52s -> 6726.32s]  this is it.\n",
            "[6726.32s -> 6728.64s]  I was going to say sheep, but there's a connotation to that.\n",
            "[6729.68s -> 6732.16s]  But yeah, it's hard to know what is true.\n",
            "[6732.16s -> 6737.36s]  And I think when constructing a GPT-like model, you have to contend with that.\n",
            "[6738.08s -> 6744.08s]  I think a lot of the answers, you know, like if you ask GPT-4, just to stick on the same\n",
            "[6744.08s -> 6745.68s]  topic, did COVID leak from a lab?\n",
            "[6745.68s -> 6746.00s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6746.00s -> 6748.40s]  I expect you would get a reasonable answer.\n",
            "[6748.40s -> 6749.44s]  It's a really good answer, yeah.\n",
            "[6750.16s -> 6752.40s]  It laid out the hypotheses.\n",
            "[6753.04s -> 6760.88s]  The interesting thing it said, which is refreshing to hear, is there's something like there's\n",
            "[6760.88s -> 6766.16s]  very little evidence for either hypothesis, direct evidence, which is important to state.\n",
            "[6766.16s -> 6772.00s]  A lot of people kind of, the reason why there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of debate is\n",
            "[6772.00s -> 6775.12s]  because there's not strong physical evidence of either.\n",
            "[6775.12s -> 6777.20s]  Heavy circumstantial evidence on either side.\n",
            "[6777.20s -> 6782.16s]  And then the other is more like biological, theoretical kind of discussion.\n",
            "[6782.88s -> 6787.44s]  And I think the answer, the nuanced answer, the GPT provider was actually pretty damn\n",
            "[6787.44s -> 6788.16s]  good.\n",
            "[6788.16s -> 6791.68s]  And also, importantly, saying that there is uncertainty.\n",
            "[6791.68s -> 6795.12s]  Just the fact that there is uncertainty as a statement was really powerful.\n",
            "[6795.12s -> 6800.48s]  Man, remember when like the social media platforms were banning people for saying it was a lab\n",
            "[6800.48s -> 6800.80s]  leak?\n",
            "[6801.68s -> 6801.92s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[6802.72s -> 6804.00s]  That's really humbling.\n",
            "[6804.00s -> 6806.96s]  The humbling, the overreach of power in censorship.\n",
            "[6807.76s -> 6812.40s]  But the more powerful GPT becomes, the more pressure there'll be to censor.\n",
            "[6814.16s -> 6820.40s]  We have a different set of challenges faced by the previous generation of companies, which\n",
            "[6820.40s -> 6827.44s]  is people talk about free speech issues with GPT, but it's not quite the same thing.\n",
            "[6828.88s -> 6830.64s]  This is a computer program, what it's allowed to say.\n",
            "[6830.64s -> 6835.20s]  And it's also not about the mass spread and the challenges that I think may have made\n",
            "[6835.84s -> 6838.16s]  the Twitter and Facebook and others have struggled with so much.\n",
            "[6838.72s -> 6843.60s]  So we will have very significant challenges, but they'll be very new and very different.\n",
            "[6846.32s -> 6849.52s]  And maybe, yeah, very new, very different is a good way to put it.\n",
            "[6849.52s -> 6851.76s]  There could be truths that are harmful and they're truth.\n",
            "[6853.52s -> 6854.00s]  I don't know.\n",
            "[6854.64s -> 6856.40s]  Group differences in IQ.\n",
            "[6856.40s -> 6856.96s]  There you go.\n",
            "[6857.60s -> 6860.88s]  Scientific work that when spoken might do more harm.\n",
            "[6862.24s -> 6864.48s]  And you ask GPT that, should GPT tell you?\n",
            "[6865.20s -> 6870.80s]  There's books written on this that are rigorous scientifically, but are very uncomfortable\n",
            "[6871.36s -> 6875.44s]  and probably not productive in any sense, but maybe are.\n",
            "[6875.44s -> 6880.00s]  There's people arguing all kinds of sides of this, and a lot of them have hate in their\n",
            "[6880.00s -> 6880.56s]  heart.\n",
            "[6881.12s -> 6881.92s]  So what do you do with that?\n",
            "[6881.92s -> 6882.80s]  So what do you do with that?\n",
            "[6882.80s -> 6888.72s]  If there's a large number of people who hate others, but are actually citing scientific\n",
            "[6888.72s -> 6889.76s]  studies, what do you do with that?\n",
            "[6889.76s -> 6891.20s]  What does GPT do with that?\n",
            "[6891.20s -> 6894.16s]  What is the priority of GPT to decrease the amount of hate in the world?\n",
            "[6894.96s -> 6897.04s]  Is it up to GPT or is it up to us humans?\n",
            "[6897.76s -> 6904.40s]  I think we as open AI have responsibility for the tools we put out into the world.\n",
            "[6904.40s -> 6908.40s]  I think the tools themselves can't have responsibility in the way I understand it.\n",
            "[6908.40s -> 6908.72s]  Wow.\n",
            "[6908.72s -> 6911.68s]  So you carry some of that burden.\n",
            "[6912.64s -> 6913.44s]  All of us.\n",
            "[6913.44s -> 6914.32s]  All of us at the company.\n",
            "[6917.60s -> 6920.80s]  So there could be harm caused by this tool.\n",
            "[6920.80s -> 6922.40s]  There will be harm caused by this tool.\n",
            "[6923.84s -> 6924.72s]  There will be harm.\n",
            "[6924.72s -> 6926.16s]  There will be tremendous benefits.\n",
            "[6926.88s -> 6931.76s]  But tools do wonderful good and real bad.\n",
            "[6934.24s -> 6936.32s]  And we will minimize the bad and maximize the good.\n",
            "[6936.96s -> 6939.12s]  And you have to carry the weight of that.\n",
            "[6939.20s -> 6942.88s]  How do you avoid GPT-4 from being hacked or jailbroken?\n",
            "[6943.84s -> 6948.40s]  There's a lot of interesting ways that people have done that, like with token smuggling,\n",
            "[6949.68s -> 6951.28s]  or other methods like Dan.\n",
            "[6952.56s -> 6958.48s]  You know, when I was like a kid, basically, I got, I worked once on jailbreaking an iPhone,\n",
            "[6958.48s -> 6959.68s]  the first iPhone, I think.\n",
            "[6960.56s -> 6965.04s]  And I thought it was so cool.\n",
            "[6965.36s -> 6966.32s]  I thought it was so cool.\n",
            "[6968.96s -> 6971.12s]  And I will say it's very strange to be on the other side of that.\n",
            "[6973.36s -> 6974.16s]  You're now the man.\n",
            "[6974.16s -> 6975.36s]  It kind of sucks.\n",
            "[6979.12s -> 6981.68s]  Is that, is some of it fun?\n",
            "[6981.68s -> 6983.36s]  How much of it is a security threat?\n",
            "[6983.36s -> 6986.48s]  I mean, what, how much do you have to take it seriously?\n",
            "[6986.48s -> 6988.80s]  How is it even possible to solve this problem?\n",
            "[6988.80s -> 6990.16s]  Where does it rank on the set of problems?\n",
            "[6990.16s -> 6992.08s]  I just keep asking questions, prompting.\n",
            "[6992.80s -> 7000.56s]  We want users to have a lot of control and get the model to behave in the way they want.\n",
            "[7003.12s -> 7004.72s]  Within some very broad bounds.\n",
            "[7005.44s -> 7010.56s]  And I think the whole reason for jailbreaking is right now, we haven't yet figured out how\n",
            "[7010.56s -> 7012.32s]  to like give that to people.\n",
            "[7012.88s -> 7017.68s]  And the more we solve that problem, I think the less need there will be for jailbreaking.\n",
            "[7018.32s -> 7021.52s]  Yeah, it's kind of like piracy gave birth to Spotify.\n",
            "[7022.64s -> 7024.96s]  People don't really jailbreak iPhones that much anymore.\n",
            "[7024.96s -> 7026.40s]  And it's gotten harder for sure.\n",
            "[7026.40s -> 7028.64s]  But also like you can just do a lot of stuff now.\n",
            "[7029.84s -> 7033.28s]  Just like with jailbreaking, I mean, there's a lot of hilarity that is in.\n",
            "[7035.52s -> 7039.28s]  So Evan Murakawa, cool guy.\n",
            "[7039.28s -> 7040.24s]  He's at OpenAI.\n",
            "[7040.24s -> 7045.52s]  He tweeted something that he also was really kind to send me, to communicate with me,\n",
            "[7045.52s -> 7049.60s]  send me a long email describing the history of OpenAI, all the different developments.\n",
            "[7050.48s -> 7052.80s]  He really lays it out.\n",
            "[7052.80s -> 7055.76s]  I mean, that's a much longer conversation of all the awesome stuff that happened.\n",
            "[7055.76s -> 7057.04s]  It's just amazing.\n",
            "[7057.04s -> 7065.36s]  But his tweet was, Dolly, July 22, Chad GPT, November 22, API 66% cheaper, August 22, embeddings\n",
            "[7065.36s -> 7071.84s]  500 times cheaper while state of the art, December 22, Chad GPT API also 10 times cheaper\n",
            "[7071.84s -> 7077.68s]  while state of the art, March 23, Whisper API, March 23, GPT-4 today, whenever that\n",
            "[7077.68s -> 7078.48s]  was last week.\n",
            "[7079.68s -> 7084.48s]  And the conclusion is this team ships.\n",
            "[7084.48s -> 7084.88s]  We do.\n",
            "[7085.92s -> 7088.80s]  What's the process of going, and then we can extend that back.\n",
            "[7089.36s -> 7098.32s]  I mean, listen, from the 2015 OpenAI launch, GPT, GPT-2, GPT-3, OpenAI 5 finals with the\n",
            "[7098.32s -> 7100.08s]  gaming stuff, which is incredible.\n",
            "[7100.08s -> 7106.00s]  GPT-3 API released, Dolly, Instruct GPT tech, fine tuning.\n",
            "[7106.96s -> 7109.52s]  There's just a million things available.\n",
            "[7109.52s -> 7115.04s]  Dolly, Dolly 2 preview, and then Dolly is available to 1 million people.\n",
            "[7115.04s -> 7123.04s]  Whisper, a second model release, just across all of the stuff, both research and deployment\n",
            "[7123.04s -> 7124.96s]  of actual products that could be in the hands of people.\n",
            "[7125.68s -> 7130.24s]  What is the process of going from idea to deployment that allows you to be so successful\n",
            "[7130.24s -> 7133.68s]  at shipping AI-based products?\n",
            "[7134.64s -> 7137.68s]  I mean, there's a question of, should we be really proud of that or should other companies\n",
            "[7137.68s -> 7138.56s]  be really embarrassed?\n",
            "[7139.28s -> 7139.84s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[7139.84s -> 7144.24s]  And we believe in a very high bar for the people on the team.\n",
            "[7145.20s -> 7152.40s]  We work hard, which you're not even supposed to say anymore or something.\n",
            "[7154.16s -> 7160.72s]  We give a huge amount of trust and autonomy and authority to individual people.\n",
            "[7161.68s -> 7164.16s]  And we try to hold each other to very high standards.\n",
            "[7165.44s -> 7171.28s]  And there's a process which we can talk about, but it won't be that illuminating.\n",
            "[7172.24s -> 7176.80s]  I think it's those other things that make us able to ship at a high velocity.\n",
            "[7177.44s -> 7179.76s]  So GPT-4 is a pretty complex system.\n",
            "[7179.76s -> 7183.36s]  Like you said, there's a million little hacks you can do to keep improving it.\n",
            "[7184.32s -> 7186.88s]  There's the cleaning up the data set, all that.\n",
            "[7186.88s -> 7188.72s]  All those are like separate teams.\n",
            "[7188.72s -> 7190.40s]  So do you give autonomy?\n",
            "[7190.48s -> 7194.96s]  Is there just autonomy to these fascinating different problems?\n",
            "[7194.96s -> 7199.04s]  If most people in the company weren't really excited to work super hard and collaborate\n",
            "[7199.04s -> 7203.36s]  well on GPT-4 and thought other stuff was more important, there'd be very little I or\n",
            "[7203.36s -> 7204.88s]  anybody else could do to make it happen.\n",
            "[7206.00s -> 7211.92s]  But we spend a lot of time figuring out what to do, getting on the same page about why\n",
            "[7211.92s -> 7217.04s]  we're doing something, and then how to divide it up and all coordinate together.\n",
            "[7217.12s -> 7221.84s]  So then you have like a passion for the goal here.\n",
            "[7222.40s -> 7224.40s]  So everybody's really passionate across the different teams.\n",
            "[7224.40s -> 7225.36s]  Yeah, we care.\n",
            "[7225.92s -> 7226.64s]  How do you hire?\n",
            "[7227.36s -> 7228.40s]  How do you hire great teams?\n",
            "[7229.60s -> 7233.44s]  The folks I've interacted with OpenAI are some of the most amazing folks I've ever met.\n",
            "[7233.44s -> 7234.32s]  It takes a lot of time.\n",
            "[7238.08s -> 7240.96s]  I think a lot of people claim to spend a third of their time hiring.\n",
            "[7240.96s -> 7242.24s]  I for real truly do.\n",
            "[7243.60s -> 7245.60s]  I still approve every single hire at OpenAI.\n",
            "[7247.12s -> 7252.00s]  I think we're working on a problem that is very cool and that great people want to work\n",
            "[7252.00s -> 7252.40s]  on.\n",
            "[7252.40s -> 7254.64s]  We have great people and some people want to be around them.\n",
            "[7254.64s -> 7260.40s]  But even with that, I think there's just no shortcut for putting a ton of effort into\n",
            "[7260.40s -> 7260.64s]  this.\n",
            "[7263.52s -> 7266.64s]  So even when you have the good people, hard work?\n",
            "[7267.20s -> 7267.76s]  I think so.\n",
            "[7269.60s -> 7275.92s]  Microsoft announced a new multi-year, multi-billion dollar, reported to be $10 billion investment\n",
            "[7276.00s -> 7277.04s]  into OpenAI.\n",
            "[7277.60s -> 7280.80s]  Can you describe the thinking that went into this?\n",
            "[7282.16s -> 7282.80s]  What are the pros?\n",
            "[7282.80s -> 7286.08s]  What are the cons of working with a company like Microsoft?\n",
            "[7287.84s -> 7294.16s]  It's not all perfect or easy, but on the whole, they have been an amazing partner to us.\n",
            "[7296.32s -> 7305.20s]  Satya and Kevin and Mikhail are super aligned with us, super flexible, have gone way above\n",
            "[7305.20s -> 7308.56s]  and beyond the call of duty to do things that we have needed to get all this to work.\n",
            "[7309.68s -> 7312.40s]  This is like a big, iron complicated engineering project.\n",
            "[7313.52s -> 7315.52s]  And they are a big and complex company.\n",
            "[7316.24s -> 7322.08s]  And I think like many great partnerships or relationships, we've sort of just continued\n",
            "[7322.08s -> 7324.16s]  to ramp up our investment in each other.\n",
            "[7324.96s -> 7326.16s]  And it's been very good.\n",
            "[7327.44s -> 7329.52s]  It's a for-profit company.\n",
            "[7329.52s -> 7330.48s]  It's very driven.\n",
            "[7331.44s -> 7332.80s]  It's very large scale.\n",
            "[7333.52s -> 7336.16s]  Is there pressure to kind of make a lot of money?\n",
            "[7336.16s -> 7342.64s]  I think most other companies wouldn't, maybe now they would, wouldn't at the time have\n",
            "[7342.64s -> 7346.24s]  understood why we needed all the weird control provisions we have and why we need all the\n",
            "[7346.24s -> 7348.32s]  kind of like AGI specialness.\n",
            "[7350.56s -> 7353.52s]  And I know that because I talked to some other companies before we did the first deal with\n",
            "[7353.52s -> 7354.08s]  Microsoft.\n",
            "[7355.68s -> 7360.88s]  And I think they were very unique in terms of the companies at that scale that understood\n",
            "[7361.84s -> 7364.48s]  why we needed the control provisions we have.\n",
            "[7365.28s -> 7370.72s]  And so those control provisions help you help make sure that the capitalist imperative does\n",
            "[7370.72s -> 7373.28s]  not affect the development of AI.\n",
            "[7375.84s -> 7382.00s]  Well, let me just ask you as an aside about Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, he seems\n",
            "[7382.00s -> 7389.68s]  to have successfully transformed Microsoft into this fresh, innovative, developer-friendly\n",
            "[7389.68s -> 7390.16s]  company.\n",
            "[7390.88s -> 7394.16s]  What do you, I mean, it's really hard to do for a very large company.\n",
            "[7395.92s -> 7397.44s]  What have you learned from him?\n",
            "[7397.44s -> 7399.44s]  Why do you think he was able to do this kind of thing?\n",
            "[7401.52s -> 7406.64s]  Yeah, what insights do you have about why this one human being is able to contribute\n",
            "[7406.64s -> 7410.40s]  to the pivot of a large company into something very new?\n",
            "[7411.68s -> 7418.08s]  I think most CEOs are either great leaders or great managers.\n",
            "[7418.64s -> 7423.20s]  And from what I have observed with Satya, he is both.\n",
            "[7424.96s -> 7434.08s]  Super visionary, really gets people excited, really makes long duration and correct calls.\n",
            "[7436.08s -> 7442.56s]  And also, he is just a super effective hands-on executive and I assume manager too.\n",
            "[7443.60s -> 7444.80s]  And I think that's pretty rare.\n",
            "[7444.88s -> 7448.72s]  I mean, Microsoft, I'm guessing, like IBM, like a lot of companies that have been at\n",
            "[7448.72s -> 7453.12s]  it for a while, probably have like old school kind of momentum.\n",
            "[7454.24s -> 7457.44s]  So you like inject AI into it, it's very tough.\n",
            "[7457.44s -> 7461.20s]  Or anything, even like the culture of open source.\n",
            "[7463.76s -> 7468.16s]  Like how hard is it to walk into a room and be like, the way we've been doing things are\n",
            "[7468.16s -> 7469.28s]  totally wrong.\n",
            "[7469.28s -> 7472.80s]  Like I'm sure there's a lot of firing involved, but I'm not sure.\n",
            "[7473.04s -> 7477.20s]  I'm sure there's a lot of firing involved or a little like twisting of arms or something.\n",
            "[7477.20s -> 7479.12s]  So do you have to rule by fear, by love?\n",
            "[7479.12s -> 7481.76s]  Like what can you say to the leadership aspect of this?\n",
            "[7482.80s -> 7489.92s]  I mean, he's just like done an unbelievable job, but he is amazing at being like clear\n",
            "[7489.92s -> 7498.80s]  and firm and getting people to want to come along, but also like compassionate and patient\n",
            "[7500.00s -> 7500.96s]  with his people too.\n",
            "[7501.36s -> 7503.12s]  I'm getting a lot of love, not fear.\n",
            "[7503.84s -> 7504.72s]  I'm a big Satya fan.\n",
            "[7506.32s -> 7507.68s]  So am I from a distance.\n",
            "[7508.48s -> 7512.56s]  I mean, you have so much in your life trajectory that I can ask you about.\n",
            "[7512.56s -> 7516.32s]  We could probably talk for many more hours, but I got to ask you because of Y Combinator,\n",
            "[7516.32s -> 7522.96s]  because of startups and so on, the recent, and you've tweeted about this, about the Silicon\n",
            "[7522.96s -> 7527.60s]  Valley Bank, SVB, what's your best understanding of what happened?\n",
            "[7527.60s -> 7528.80s]  What is interesting?\n",
            "[7528.88s -> 7532.72s]  What is interesting to understand about what happened with SVB?\n",
            "[7532.72s -> 7542.24s]  I think they just like horribly mismanaged buying while chasing returns in a very silly\n",
            "[7542.24s -> 7552.40s]  world of 0% interest rates, buying very long dated instruments, secured by very short term\n",
            "[7552.40s -> 7553.52s]  and variable deposits.\n",
            "[7554.56s -> 7556.96s]  And this was obviously dumb.\n",
            "[7558.80s -> 7566.48s]  I think totally the fault of the management team, although I'm not sure what the regulators\n",
            "[7566.48s -> 7567.36s]  were thinking either.\n",
            "[7569.20s -> 7579.12s]  And is an example of where I think you see the dangers of incentive misalignment because\n",
            "[7579.68s -> 7588.88s]  as the Fed kept raising, I assume that the incentives on people working at SVB to not\n",
            "[7590.16s -> 7597.68s]  sell at a loss, they're super safe bonds, which were now down 20% or whatever, or down\n",
            "[7597.68s -> 7598.96s]  less than that, but then kept going down.\n",
            "[7602.08s -> 7604.16s]  That's like a classic example of incentive misalignment.\n",
            "[7604.64s -> 7607.68s]  Now, I suspect they're not the only bank in a bad position here.\n",
            "[7608.80s -> 7613.60s]  The response of the federal government, I think, took much longer than it should have.\n",
            "[7613.60s -> 7616.72s]  But by Sunday afternoon, I was glad they had done what they've done.\n",
            "[7617.76s -> 7619.12s]  We'll see what happens next.\n",
            "[7620.24s -> 7623.12s]  So how do you avoid depositors from doubting their bank?\n",
            "[7623.12s -> 7629.84s]  What I think would be good to do right now is just, and this requires statutory change,\n",
            "[7629.92s -> 7634.96s]  this requires statutory change, but it may be a full guarantee of deposits,\n",
            "[7634.96s -> 7636.64s]  maybe a much, much higher than 250k.\n",
            "[7637.28s -> 7647.04s]  But you really don't want depositors having to doubt the security of their deposits.\n",
            "[7647.04s -> 7650.00s]  And this thing that a lot of people on Twitter were saying is like, well, it's their fault.\n",
            "[7650.00s -> 7655.04s]  They should have been reading the balance sheet and the risk audit of the bank.\n",
            "[7655.04s -> 7656.72s]  Do we really want people to have to do that?\n",
            "[7656.72s -> 7657.52s]  I would argue no.\n",
            "[7660.16s -> 7663.36s]  What impact has it had on startups that you see?\n",
            "[7663.36s -> 7665.20s]  Well, there was a weekend of terror for sure.\n",
            "[7666.00s -> 7668.72s]  And now I think even though it was only 10 days ago,\n",
            "[7668.72s -> 7670.96s]  it feels like forever and people have forgotten about it.\n",
            "[7670.96s -> 7673.44s]  But it kind of reveals the fragility of our economic system.\n",
            "[7673.44s -> 7674.32s]  We may not be done.\n",
            "[7674.32s -> 7678.56s]  That may have been like the gun shown falling off the nightstand in the first scene of the movie or whatever.\n",
            "[7678.56s -> 7679.92s]  It could be like other banks that are-\n",
            "[7679.92s -> 7680.80s]  For sure, there could be.\n",
            "[7682.56s -> 7689.12s]  Well, even with FTX, I mean, I'm just, well, that's fraud, but there's mismanagement.\n",
            "[7690.24s -> 7697.92s]  And you wonder how stable our economic system is, especially with new entrants with AGI.\n",
            "[7697.92s -> 7703.92s]  I think one of the many lessons to take away from this SVB thing is how much,\n",
            "[7706.96s -> 7711.76s]  how fast and how much the world changes and how little I think our experts,\n",
            "[7712.88s -> 7716.48s]  leaders, business leaders, regulators, whatever, understand it.\n",
            "[7716.48s -> 7723.68s]  So the speed with which the SVB bank run happened because of Twitter,\n",
            "[7723.68s -> 7728.56s]  because of mobile banking apps, whatever, was so different than the 2008 collapse\n",
            "[7728.56s -> 7730.16s]  where we didn't have those things really.\n",
            "[7731.84s -> 7740.24s]  And I don't think that people in power realize how much the field had shifted.\n",
            "[7740.24s -> 7745.44s]  And I think that is a very tiny preview of the shifts that AGI will bring.\n",
            "[7746.80s -> 7750.72s]  What gives you hope in that shift from an economic perspective?\n",
            "[7751.28s -> 7754.56s]  Uh, that sounds scary, the instability.\n",
            "[7754.56s -> 7761.20s]  I know I am nervous about the speed with which this changes and the speed with which\n",
            "[7761.84s -> 7768.08s]  our institutions can adapt, which is part of why we want to start deploying these systems\n",
            "[7768.08s -> 7772.16s]  really early, while they're really weak, so that people have as much time as possible to do this.\n",
            "[7772.24s -> 7777.04s]  I think it's really scary to have nothing, nothing, nothing, and then drop a super powerful\n",
            "[7777.04s -> 7778.32s]  AGI all at once on the world.\n",
            "[7779.04s -> 7781.60s]  I don't think people should want that to happen.\n",
            "[7781.60s -> 7786.00s]  But what gives me hope is, I think the less zeros, the more positive sum the world gets,\n",
            "[7786.00s -> 7786.88s]  the better.\n",
            "[7786.88s -> 7793.76s]  And the upside of the vision here, just how much better life can be, I think that's going to\n",
            "[7794.48s -> 7795.68s]  unite a lot of us.\n",
            "[7795.68s -> 7799.28s]  And even if it doesn't, it's just going to make it all feel more positive some.\n",
            "[7799.84s -> 7806.16s]  When you create an AGI system, you'll be one of the few people in the room that get to interact\n",
            "[7806.16s -> 7810.00s]  with it first, assuming GPT-4 is not that.\n",
            "[7811.68s -> 7814.72s]  What question would you ask her, him, it?\n",
            "[7815.28s -> 7816.56s]  What discussion would you have?\n",
            "[7817.68s -> 7822.40s]  You know, one of the things that I have realized, like this is a little aside and not that important,\n",
            "[7822.48s -> 7830.48s]  but I have never felt any pronoun other than it towards any of our systems.\n",
            "[7831.12s -> 7835.36s]  But most other people say him or her or something like that.\n",
            "[7837.76s -> 7840.80s]  And I wonder why I am so different.\n",
            "[7840.80s -> 7841.76s]  Like, yeah, I don't know.\n",
            "[7841.76s -> 7842.88s]  Maybe it's I watch it develop.\n",
            "[7842.88s -> 7844.08s]  Maybe it's I think more about it.\n",
            "[7844.08s -> 7847.36s]  But I'm curious where that difference comes from.\n",
            "[7847.76s -> 7849.76s]  I think probably because you watch it develop.\n",
            "[7849.76s -> 7853.68s]  But then again, I watch a lot of stuff develop and I always go to him or her.\n",
            "[7853.68s -> 7857.04s]  I anthropomorphize aggressively.\n",
            "[7859.68s -> 7861.36s]  And certainly most humans do.\n",
            "[7861.36s -> 7863.60s]  I think it's really important that we try to\n",
            "[7866.00s -> 7869.12s]  explain, to educate people that this is a tool and not a creature.\n",
            "[7871.28s -> 7872.64s]  I think I, yes.\n",
            "[7873.44s -> 7876.24s]  But I also think there will be a room in society for creatures.\n",
            "[7876.80s -> 7878.72s]  And we should draw hard lines between those.\n",
            "[7879.68s -> 7883.76s]  If something's a creature, I'm happy for people to like think of it and talk about it as a creature.\n",
            "[7883.76s -> 7886.80s]  But I think it is dangerous to project creatureness onto a tool.\n",
            "[7891.20s -> 7892.16s]  That's one perspective.\n",
            "[7893.04s -> 7899.84s]  A perspective I would take if it's done transparently is projecting creatureness onto a tool\n",
            "[7900.40s -> 7903.68s]  makes that tool more usable if it's done well.\n",
            "[7903.68s -> 7907.36s]  Yeah, so if there's like kind of UI affordances that\n",
            "[7909.20s -> 7910.32s]  work, I understand that.\n",
            "[7910.32s -> 7912.72s]  I still think we want to be like pretty careful with it.\n",
            "[7913.68s -> 7918.08s]  Because the more creature-like it is, the more it can manipulate you emotionally.\n",
            "[7918.08s -> 7923.44s]  Or just the more you think that it's doing something or should be able to do something\n",
            "[7923.44s -> 7926.16s]  or rely on it for something that it's not capable of.\n",
            "[7927.52s -> 7928.56s]  What if it is capable?\n",
            "[7929.20s -> 7931.12s]  What about Sam Alman?\n",
            "[7931.12s -> 7932.48s]  What if it's capable of love?\n",
            "[7934.16s -> 7938.56s]  Do you think there will be romantic relationships like in the movie Her with GPT?\n",
            "[7940.32s -> 7948.72s]  There are companies now that offer, like for lack of a better word, like romantic companionship AIs.\n",
            "[7950.40s -> 7952.48s]  Replica is an example of such a company.\n",
            "[7952.48s -> 7952.98s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[7953.60s -> 7957.76s]  I personally don't feel any interest in that.\n",
            "[7958.64s -> 7960.96s]  So you're focusing on creating intelligent tools.\n",
            "[7960.96s -> 7962.56s]  But I understand why other people do.\n",
            "[7963.92s -> 7964.64s]  That's interesting.\n",
            "[7965.44s -> 7968.16s]  I have, for some reason, I'm very drawn to that.\n",
            "[7968.16s -> 7970.96s]  Have you spent a lot of time interacting with Replica or anything similar?\n",
            "[7970.96s -> 7972.96s]  Replica, but also just building stuff myself.\n",
            "[7972.96s -> 7976.16s]  Like I have robot dogs now that I use.\n",
            "[7977.44s -> 7981.52s]  I use the movement of the robots to communicate emotion.\n",
            "[7981.52s -> 7983.76s]  I've been exploring how to do that.\n",
            "[7984.72s -> 7993.12s]  Look, there are going to be very interactive GPT4-powered pets or whatever.\n",
            "[7994.16s -> 8001.44s]  Robots, companions, and a lot of people seem really excited about that.\n",
            "[8002.00s -> 8003.76s]  Yeah, there's a lot of interesting possibilities.\n",
            "[8003.76s -> 8007.84s]  I think you'll discover them, I think, as you go along.\n",
            "[8007.84s -> 8008.88s]  That's the whole point.\n",
            "[8008.88s -> 8013.92s]  Like the things you say in this conversation, you might in a year say, this was right, this was wrong.\n",
            "[8013.92s -> 8020.32s]  No, I may totally want, I may turn out that I like love my GPT4 dog, robot, or whatever.\n",
            "[8020.32s -> 8024.00s]  Maybe you want your programming assistant to be a little kinder and not mock you.\n",
            "[8024.72s -> 8025.84s]  With your incompetence.\n",
            "[8025.84s -> 8033.60s]  No, I think you do want the style of the way GPT4 talks to you really matters.\n",
            "[8033.60s -> 8036.56s]  You probably want something different than what I want, but we both probably want something\n",
            "[8036.56s -> 8038.32s]  different than the current GPT4.\n",
            "[8038.96s -> 8042.32s]  And that will be really important, even for a very tool-like thing.\n",
            "[8043.04s -> 8047.60s]  Is there styles of conversation, oh no, contents of conversations you're looking forward to\n",
            "[8047.60s -> 8052.08s]  with an AGI, like GPT567?\n",
            "[8052.08s -> 8059.92s]  Is there stuff where, like where do you go to outside of the fun meme stuff?\n",
            "[8059.92s -> 8060.64s]  For actual, like…\n",
            "[8060.64s -> 8065.36s]  I mean, what I'm excited for is like, please explain to me how all the physics works,\n",
            "[8065.36s -> 8066.80s]  and solve all remaining mysteries.\n",
            "[8067.76s -> 8069.20s]  So, like a theory of everything.\n",
            "[8069.20s -> 8070.00s]  I'll be real happy.\n",
            "[8071.12s -> 8073.76s]  Faster than light travel.\n",
            "[8073.76s -> 8074.48s]  Don't you want to know?\n",
            "[8075.04s -> 8076.56s]  So, there's several things to know.\n",
            "[8076.56s -> 8078.00s]  It's like, NP-Hard.\n",
            "[8079.52s -> 8081.60s]  Is it possible and how to do it?\n",
            "[8083.44s -> 8084.48s]  Yeah, I want to know.\n",
            "[8084.48s -> 8085.04s]  I want to know.\n",
            "[8085.04s -> 8089.28s]  Probably the first question would be, are there intelligent alien civilizations out there?\n",
            "[8089.28s -> 8094.40s]  But I don't think AGI has the ability to do that, to know that.\n",
            "[8094.40s -> 8096.96s]  Might be able to help us figure out how to go detect.\n",
            "[8098.80s -> 8102.40s]  It may need to like send some emails to humans and say, can you run these experiments?\n",
            "[8102.40s -> 8103.76s]  Can you build the space probe?\n",
            "[8104.48s -> 8106.64s]  Can you wait, you know, a very long time?\n",
            "[8106.64s -> 8109.04s]  Or provide a much better estimate than the Drake equation.\n",
            "[8109.60s -> 8110.24s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[8110.24s -> 8113.76s]  With the knowledge we already have, and maybe process all the…\n",
            "[8113.76s -> 8115.44s]  Because we've been collecting a lot of…\n",
            "[8115.44s -> 8117.20s]  Yeah, you know, maybe it's in the data.\n",
            "[8117.20s -> 8121.84s]  Maybe we need to build better detectors, which the really advanced AI could tell us how to do.\n",
            "[8121.84s -> 8126.08s]  It may not be able to answer it on its own, but it may be able to tell us what to go build,\n",
            "[8126.80s -> 8127.76s]  to collect more data.\n",
            "[8127.76s -> 8129.76s]  What if it says the aliens are already here?\n",
            "[8131.28s -> 8132.88s]  I think I would just go about my life.\n",
            "[8132.88s -> 8133.38s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[8135.20s -> 8139.12s]  I mean, a version of that is like, what are you doing differently now that like,\n",
            "[8139.76s -> 8145.36s]  if GPT-4 told you and you believed it, okay, AGI is here, or AGI is coming real soon,\n",
            "[8146.48s -> 8147.68s]  what are you going to do differently?\n",
            "[8147.68s -> 8151.44s]  The source of joy and happiness and fulfillment in life is from other humans.\n",
            "[8151.44s -> 8153.60s]  So it's mostly nothing.\n",
            "[8154.32s -> 8160.00s]  Unless it causes some kind of threat, but that threat would have to be like literally a fire.\n",
            "[8160.80s -> 8165.68s]  Are we living now with a greater degree of digital intelligence than you would have expected\n",
            "[8165.68s -> 8166.88s]  three years ago in the world?\n",
            "[8166.88s -> 8167.76s]  Much, much more, yeah.\n",
            "[8167.76s -> 8172.96s]  And if you could go back and be told by an oracle three years ago, which is a blink of an eye,\n",
            "[8172.96s -> 8180.24s]  that in March of 2023, you will be living with this degree of digital intelligence,\n",
            "[8180.24s -> 8182.88s]  would you expect your life to be more different than it is right now?\n",
            "[8185.84s -> 8187.52s]  Probably, probably.\n",
            "[8187.52s -> 8190.08s]  But there's also a lot of different trajectories intermixed.\n",
            "[8190.08s -> 8197.44s]  I would have expected the society's response to a pandemic to be much better,\n",
            "[8198.48s -> 8201.20s]  much clearer, less divided.\n",
            "[8201.20s -> 8204.16s]  I was very confused about, there's a lot of stuff,\n",
            "[8204.16s -> 8207.20s]  given the amazing technological advancements that are happening,\n",
            "[8207.20s -> 8211.92s]  the weird social divisions, it's almost like the more technological advancement there is,\n",
            "[8211.92s -> 8214.96s]  the more we're going to be having fun with social division.\n",
            "[8214.96s -> 8218.72s]  Or maybe the technological advancement just revealed the division that was already there.\n",
            "[8218.72s -> 8225.76s]  But all of that just confuses my understanding of how far along we are as a human civilization,\n",
            "[8225.76s -> 8230.64s]  and what brings us meaning, and how we discover truth together, and knowledge, and wisdom.\n",
            "[8231.76s -> 8233.20s]  So I don't know.\n",
            "[8233.20s -> 8239.92s]  But when I open Wikipedia, I'm happy that humans are able to create this thing.\n",
            "[8239.92s -> 8240.32s]  For sure.\n",
            "[8240.32s -> 8242.40s]  Yes, there is bias, yes.\n",
            "[8242.40s -> 8242.96s]  But it's incredible.\n",
            "[8242.96s -> 8244.16s]  It's a triumphal.\n",
            "[8244.16s -> 8245.76s]  It's a triumph of human civilization.\n",
            "[8245.76s -> 8245.92s]  100%.\n",
            "[8246.96s -> 8250.72s]  Google search, the search, search, period, is incredible.\n",
            "[8250.72s -> 8252.88s]  The way it was able to do 20 years ago.\n",
            "[8253.68s -> 8259.92s]  And now this new thing, GPT, is like, is this going to be the next,\n",
            "[8260.96s -> 8268.32s]  the conglomeration of all of that that made web search and Wikipedia so magical,\n",
            "[8268.32s -> 8270.24s]  but now more directly accessible?\n",
            "[8270.24s -> 8272.08s]  You can have a conversation with the damn thing.\n",
            "[8272.72s -> 8273.44s]  It's incredible.\n",
            "[8274.80s -> 8279.92s]  Let me ask you for advice for young people in high school and college, what to do with their life.\n",
            "[8281.04s -> 8284.16s]  How to have a career they can be proud of, how to have a life they can be proud of.\n",
            "[8286.00s -> 8289.28s]  You wrote a blog post a few years ago titled How to Be Successful.\n",
            "[8289.84s -> 8293.28s]  And there's a bunch of really, really, people should check out that blog post.\n",
            "[8293.28s -> 8296.32s]  There's so, it's so succinct.\n",
            "[8296.32s -> 8297.52s]  It's so brilliant.\n",
            "[8297.52s -> 8298.88s]  You have a bunch of bullet points.\n",
            "[8299.44s -> 8300.40s]  Compound yourself.\n",
            "[8301.28s -> 8302.88s]  Have almost too much self-belief.\n",
            "[8302.88s -> 8304.16s]  Learn to think independently.\n",
            "[8304.16s -> 8306.32s]  Get good at sales and quotes.\n",
            "[8306.32s -> 8307.76s]  Make it easy to take risks.\n",
            "[8307.76s -> 8310.24s]  Focus, work hard, as we talked about.\n",
            "[8310.24s -> 8313.84s]  Be bold, be willful, be hard to compete with, build a network.\n",
            "[8315.04s -> 8317.84s]  You get rich by owning things, be internally driven.\n",
            "[8318.40s -> 8322.72s]  What stands out to you from that or beyond as advice you can give?\n",
            "[8323.60s -> 8331.92s]  Yeah, no, I think it is like good advice in some sense, but I also think it's way too tempting\n",
            "[8332.56s -> 8335.12s]  to take advice from other people.\n",
            "[8335.84s -> 8339.76s]  And the stuff that worked for me, which I tried to write down there,\n",
            "[8339.76s -> 8343.28s]  probably doesn't work that well or may not work as well for other people.\n",
            "[8343.84s -> 8346.96s]  Or like other people may find out that they want to\n",
            "[8347.84s -> 8350.64s]  just have a super different life trajectory.\n",
            "[8350.64s -> 8356.56s]  And I think I mostly got what I wanted by ignoring advice.\n",
            "[8357.92s -> 8361.44s]  And I think like I tell people not to listen to too much advice.\n",
            "[8362.24s -> 8367.28s]  Listening to advice from other people should be approached with great caution.\n",
            "[8368.32s -> 8373.60s]  How would you describe how you've approached life outside of this advice\n",
            "[8376.24s -> 8378.00s]  that you would advise to other people?\n",
            "[8378.00s -> 8380.56s]  So really just in the quiet of your mind to think,\n",
            "[8381.68s -> 8383.76s]  what gives me happiness?\n",
            "[8383.76s -> 8385.20s]  What is the right thing to do here?\n",
            "[8385.20s -> 8386.48s]  How can I have the most impact?\n",
            "[8386.64s -> 8391.60s]  I wish it were that introspective all the time.\n",
            "[8392.56s -> 8395.60s]  It's a lot of just like, what will bring me joy?\n",
            "[8395.60s -> 8396.80s]  What will bring me fulfillment?\n",
            "[8398.16s -> 8399.76s]  What will bring, what will be?\n",
            "[8400.96s -> 8403.28s]  I do think a lot about what I can do that will be useful,\n",
            "[8403.28s -> 8406.00s]  but like who do I want to spend my time with?\n",
            "[8406.00s -> 8407.36s]  What do I want to spend my time doing?\n",
            "[8407.36s -> 8410.32s]  Like a fish in water just going along with the current.\n",
            "[8410.32s -> 8411.92s]  Yeah, that's certainly what it feels like.\n",
            "[8411.92s -> 8415.12s]  I mean, I think that's what most people would say if they were really honest.\n",
            "[8415.44s -> 8417.04s]  Would say if they were really honest about it.\n",
            "[8417.84s -> 8421.20s]  Yeah, if they really think, yeah.\n",
            "[8421.20s -> 8425.84s]  And some of that then gets to the Sam Harris discussion of free will being an illusion.\n",
            "[8425.84s -> 8426.16s]  Of course.\n",
            "[8426.16s -> 8431.44s]  Which very well might be, which is a really complicated thing to wrap your head around.\n",
            "[8433.76s -> 8435.36s]  What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing?\n",
            "[8437.12s -> 8439.36s]  That's a question you could ask an AGI.\n",
            "[8439.36s -> 8440.40s]  What's the meaning of life?\n",
            "[8441.36s -> 8446.16s]  As far as you look at it, you're part of a small group of people\n",
            "[8446.16s -> 8448.72s]  that are creating something truly special.\n",
            "[8449.60s -> 8455.04s]  Something that feels like, almost feels like humanity was always moving towards.\n",
            "[8455.04s -> 8457.68s]  Yeah, that's what I was going to say is I don't think it's a small group of people.\n",
            "[8457.68s -> 8464.24s]  I think this is the, I think this is like the product of the culmination of whatever you want\n",
            "[8464.24s -> 8468.48s]  to call it, an amazing amount of human effort.\n",
            "[8468.64s -> 8471.44s]  And if you think about everything that had to come together for this to happen,\n",
            "[8474.08s -> 8477.92s]  when those people discovered the transistor in the forties, like, is this what they were planning on?\n",
            "[8478.56s -> 8481.92s]  All of the work, the hundreds of thousands, millions of people, whatever it's been\n",
            "[8482.64s -> 8489.04s]  that it took to go from that one first transistor to packing the numbers we do into a chip and\n",
            "[8489.04s -> 8493.12s]  figuring out how to wire them all up together and everything else that goes into this,\n",
            "[8494.08s -> 8498.64s]  the energy required, the science, like just every step.\n",
            "[8500.56s -> 8503.20s]  This is the output of all of us.\n",
            "[8504.72s -> 8505.68s]  And I think that's pretty cool.\n",
            "[8506.64s -> 8511.52s]  And before the transistor, there was a hundred billion people who lived and died,\n",
            "[8512.72s -> 8518.32s]  had sex, fell in love, ate a lot of good food, murdered each other sometimes, rarely,\n",
            "[8518.96s -> 8521.76s]  but mostly just good to each other, struggled to survive.\n",
            "[8521.76s -> 8526.08s]  And before that there was bacteria and eukaryotes and all of that.\n",
            "[8526.08s -> 8528.24s]  And all of that was on this one exponential curve.\n",
            "[8529.44s -> 8529.84s]  Yeah.\n",
            "[8529.84s -> 8531.04s]  How many others are there?\n",
            "[8531.04s -> 8532.08s]  I wonder.\n",
            "[8532.08s -> 8535.76s]  We will ask, that is question number one for me, for AGI, how many others?\n",
            "[8536.64s -> 8539.04s]  And I'm not sure which answer I want to hear.\n",
            "[8539.68s -> 8541.52s]  Sam, you're an incredible person.\n",
            "[8541.52s -> 8542.72s]  It's an honor to talk to you.\n",
            "[8542.72s -> 8544.16s]  Thank you for the work you're doing.\n",
            "[8544.16s -> 8548.72s]  Like I said, I've talked to Ilyas Eskerov, I talked to Greg, I talked to so many people at OpenAI.\n",
            "[8548.72s -> 8550.16s]  They're really good people.\n",
            "[8550.16s -> 8552.00s]  They're doing really interesting work.\n",
            "[8552.00s -> 8555.44s]  We are going to try our hardest to get to a good place here.\n",
            "[8555.44s -> 8557.92s]  I think the challenges are tough.\n",
            "[8557.92s -> 8563.04s]  I understand that not everyone agrees with our approach of iterative deployment and also\n",
            "[8563.04s -> 8566.40s]  iterative discovery, but it's what we believe in.\n",
            "[8566.96s -> 8574.32s]  I think we're making good progress and I think the pace is fast, but so is the progress.\n",
            "[8574.32s -> 8577.76s]  So, like the pace of capabilities and change is fast.\n",
            "[8578.72s -> 8583.76s]  But I think that also means we will have new tools to figure out alignment and sort of\n",
            "[8583.76s -> 8585.36s]  the capital S safety problem.\n",
            "[8586.00s -> 8587.68s]  I feel like we're in this together.\n",
            "[8587.68s -> 8590.80s]  I can't wait what we together as a human civilization come up with.\n",
            "[8590.80s -> 8592.08s]  It's going to be great, I think.\n",
            "[8592.08s -> 8593.20s]  We'll work really hard to make sure.\n",
            "[8594.24s -> 8596.72s]  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sam Altman.\n",
            "[8596.72s -> 8600.00s]  To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.\n",
            "[8600.56s -> 8605.52s]  And now, let me leave you with some words from Alan Turing in 1951.\n",
            "[8606.48s -> 8613.04s]  It seems probable that once the machine thinking method has started, it would not take long\n",
            "[8613.04s -> 8615.44s]  to outstrip our feeble powers.\n",
            "[8616.40s -> 8621.92s]  At some stage, therefore, we should have to expect the machines to take control.\n",
            "[8624.08s -> 8627.20s]  Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.\n",
            "time: 8min 15s (started: 2023-10-18 19:01:52 +00:00)\n"
          ]
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