Are you a MeshCentral user from Germany (or nearby)?

[NewUserfromDE]

This is an early attempt to find MeshCentral users in Germany.
(I will repeat this after a certain time or if there will be better suited possibilities to find them within the MeshCentral community.)

My goal is NOT to build a german community. I made bad experiences when splitting an international open source community into national communities - this just divides and weakens community power, when not carefully done. Almost always it's done quick and dirty.

But with many projects there are problems which can best be locally solved. These things for me are:

1. networking with other MeshCentral admins in Germany
2. networking with other companies in Germany, that use MeshCentral
3. brainstorming about sharing costs for code signing certificates and so on

In theory I'm also interested in german speaking users, but since I'm also focusing on money and law, this would not be ideal. For example Switzerland has no Euro and is not part of the EU (laws) and Austria is another country with slightly other laws.

Please notice that I have already once founded a german open source "Verein" (registered association) for example, so this thread here is no hobby question ;-)

If you answer, please tell:

• country (Germany, Austria, Switzerland ...)
• if you are:
  • a) admin or end user (do you run a MeshCentral server yourself)
  • b) company / commercial (do you use of MeshCentral in a company or with a commercial goal)
  • c) interested in "investing" / sharing costs (e.G. buying a code signing certificate or founding a MeshCentral Verein)
  • or some combination of a, b, c ;-)

[simpsonetti]

Germany, in special lower saxony, so we say "moin" :)
"admin" for this part
"company" research center
it depends on what special thing. I don't have an idea if we in our company forming are allowed to spent. (it's a longer story...)

Networking here in Germany would be nice and of course, no community split should happen.
But i think in focusing in groups could be more effiency in pushing new features, strategies etc.

[NewUserfromDE]

Moin, NRW here. Until there are enough users from Germany I have no special plans yet =) But feel free to contact me for admin things in the meanwhile (I use Ubuntu and Hetzner). You seem to use Intel AMT. I don't have AMT hardware, to me MeshCentral is important as a general remote administration platform for mainly Windows clients. Will you attend the or one of the community online meetings?

[n1smithy]

Moin!

[simpsonetti]

i have here Intel AMT (it's now called Intel vPro?) hardware, but i'm still testing.
I have mainly Windows, but there are some Linux and on my dev-Meshcentral there is one Mac

Yes, last thursday i tried to come to the comm meeting, but it changed at a short notice.
The recording isn't uploaded yet?

[NewUserfromDE]

AMT:
vPro ist just a part of AMT, vPro is a marketing term like Centrino. So every AMT enabled system is a vPro system but not every vPro system has AMT. Personally I find it really difficult to find / buy an actual AMT system., often it's just a system with a vPro processor but without AMT. If Ylian would still work for Intel I would hint this to him ;-) Because of Windows 11 I need to buy half a dozen PCs and would like to have AMT, but all I find are expensive workstations. Also AMT may have as far as I understand security problems, since it's undocumented and already had bugs and is always online / reachable, so I have closed this idea topic for me personally and was very happy to learn that MeshCenral works in general with many systems besides special controllers AND is open source, so this is IMHO the very best remote management system in existence (RustDesk is somewhat unclear regarding ownership and costs, so I dropped this, too).

Monthly Meeting:
Hm, AFAIK there was no change ;-) I attended and it was date and time as planned. The next one is on Februrary 27th (last Thursday in February) at 15:00 German time. Do you plan to attend? There was also a German user at the meeting in November. If this wasn't you, then we would be already 3 ;-) He just has to find this discussion and/or attend the meeting again.

Recordings:
Indeed, Sammy hasn't upload the January recording yet. Maybe busy. Also he missed to record some part due to technical problems. Let's wait a week :D

[simpsonetti]

AMT: vPro ist just a part of AMT, vPro is a marketing term like Centrino. So every AMT enabled system is a vPro system but not every vPro system has AMT. Personally I find it really difficult to find / buy an actual AMT system., often it's just a system with a vPro processor but without AMT. If Ylian would still work for Intel I would hint this to him ;-) Because of Windows 11 I need to buy half a dozen PCs and would like to have AMT, but all I find are expensive workstations. Also AMT may have as far as I understand security problems, since it's undocumented and already had bugs and is always online / reachable, so I have closed this idea topic for me personally and was very happy to learn that MeshCenral works in general with many systems besides special controllers AND is open source, so this is IMHO the very best remote management system in existence (RustDesk is somewhat unclear regarding ownership and costs, so I dropped this, too).

Well, for sure i know thats AMT onBoard. i get 2 DELL Laptops with AMT from a try&buy programm.
And yes, the documentation is aweful for amt. There are some things in the videso from Ylian that i'm trying to rebuild here but some won'T work...
And yes, for us it's quite the best RMS . I've tested some, open source, commercial and this is quite far the best. And i hope with higher versions are some features added that i don'T know i need them :D

Monthly Meeting: Hm, AFAIK there was no change ;-) I attended and it was date and time as planned. The next one is on Februrary 27th (last Thursday in February) at 15:00 German time. Do you plan to attend? There was also a German user at the meeting in November. If this wasn't you, then we would be already 3 ;-) He just has to find this discussion and/or attend the meeting again.

I didn't was there. I plan to attend...

Recordings: Indeed, Sammy hasn't upload the January recording yet. Maybe busy. Also he missed to record some part due to technical problems. Let's wait a week :D

yeah, it's fine.

[NewUserfromDE]

Yilian didn't make it to the last meeting, I think he will be at the next. But for sure Simon will be there as far as I understood. So be prepared to ask your AMT questions :-D Also really do prepare, so people don't get bored, I guess most of them don't have AMT ;-)

[fyppes]

Hello there,

Austria here, Vienna based, against splitting the discussions, however, some aspects may fit better localized discussion groups/elsewhere.

a) admin
b) commercial
c) In principle interested in investing, albeit not for code signing certificates

Started using MC about two years ago, initially toyed around with it, then it became more and more a replacement for anydesk.

At present only using it on Windows machines, plan on using it with Linux relatively soon, Mac not so soon.

Very happy with the software, obviously there's always room for improvement.

I'm more of a RTFM kind of guy, what I would have wanted in the beginning is written documentation that is moderately current, I set up my MC server, then I started to discover additional features, which, admittedly, were covered to a large extent in the videos by Ylian.

I`m pretty sure that the adoption of MC would be better if the documentation were at a more current level and if there were more how-to documents.

If I were to start again, I'd have used different domains for my MC. I guess that eventually I'll set up a new MC server and migrate the current machines over there.

I like the plugin capability and if I had time, I'm fairly certain that I would play around with coding a bit in that area.

Cheers,
Philipp

[NewUserfromDE]

Hi @fyppes / Philipp, nice to meet you. Thanks for all the information, so we are 3 now ;-)

Investing:

• Code signing certificates are just a personal motivation and point of me, since I don't see the economic sense to buy it for just a few machines. I can, but I don't want to. Even if it are more machines, because, I'm an advocate of open source and its communities and bundling forces. But this would need a legal organization that buys and owns the certificates (for its members, because of scammer and because of motivation to invest).
• I guess my second (unwritten) idea is more for your liking: Voting on ideas and bundling forces / investments to make them happen.
• From a legal point of view I'd also like to have an organization, so that spending to them is an operating cost in sense of taxes ("Betriebsausgabe" in German). I'm not sure if the current donation system would allow this in sense of tax rules. For Germany this would be a "Verein" for example. Austria would need its own organization or join the German one, its seems every member of an EU state can join. The form of an European "Verein" does not yet exist and given the state of the EU and the world I don't think the law process will be finished in the next years. But I'm no EU law expert ;-)

Written documentation:

• +1 from me, I had and have the same problem. On the other hand the videos help all those that are used more to videos and it's a difference to other applications, that are limited to a written documentation (which often does not help regarding commercial software). For both groups of users its helpful to be able to see how and where Yilian did something, this is an advantage. Of course, the videos do need notably more time to "read" and can't be searched. The possibilities nowadays with auto captioning and adjustable speed to alleviate this a bit. So yes, there should exist a written documentation parallel.
• I don't think the coders will write a documentation or that any of us wants them to spend time with this instead of coding. So especially in open source projects this would be a task for the community with support from the coders for understanding.
• In my mind this would mean:
  1. increase the active community by enlarging the meetings
  2. propose / vote on the idea of a written documentation
  3. do the lengthy work of writing the documentation by combined forces (form a team, wiki, chapters, paragraphs)
  4. success :D

(A discouraging discussion would appear later, namely how to keep both, video an written documentation up to date or if only one gets updated and how. But that's life.)

[fyppes]

If we're talking about a code signing certificate for MC in general, yes, why not. We still need a way for people to sign the agent themselves with a code signing certificate (if they want to "whitelabel" or customize the agent).

Association or Verein, fine with me.

My main gripe with videos is that there is no quick way to search for a specific term like you can do with written documentation. Different people have different approaches towards soaking up knowledge, not saying that we should favour one kind of documentation over the other, they won't be at the same level ever, also understood and agreed.

Nobody likes to write documentation, at least I haven't met anyone who does :-)

I'm willing to help in that effort, but, as you rightly express it - we should go about that aspect of MC in an agreed and structured way.

[NewUserfromDE]

Code Signing Certificate

First (months ago) I wanted a code signing certificate in general yes, but hen I changed my mind, because it would make it easier for scammers (the reason Yilian does not / could not provide it anymore) and therefore make it harder for "commercial" users (more false positives at AV scanners and Microsoft Smart Screen)

And because it's a chance, not a problem: It's always hard to find working open source business models. The certificate is something normal users can get over, but which "commercial" users (with customers) would usually need. And then when spending on such a thing, why not share costs and spend (e.g. the saved money) on MeshCentral in general (funding)?

So no, personally my aim is not a certificate for all (won't work) but as a service for donating / paying business users. And this would lead to associations per country (or country region). Perfect to get a stable MeshCentral funding. Of course any user can buy a code signign certificate and customzie the agent, but it expensive, see #6705.

Documentation

Searchable, agreed! (I mostly use the commented configs as a workaround.)

Yes, I also would be willing to write documentation, but I know how much work this is. So maybe some paragraphs or one chapter for me. But possible as a larger team, a structured community can do this.

[NewUserfromDE]

@fyppes To my shame I must admit that there is of course a written documentation, which I also already used and then forgot about: https://ylianst.github.io/MeshCentral/meshcentral/

Do you know this already?

[simpsonetti]

code signing is realy interesting.
And forming a german "gemeinnütziger Verein" could help to spend money.
We can't spend money to a github repo; we have to earmarked. And therefor a "Verein" should be the best possibilities.

[NewUserfromDE]

Thanks. Two opinions:

1. Spending via GitHub donations won't work for a larger community. Also a local association can do much more than spending / donating, it's a way to organize a large community, especially since MeshCentral is international. For example I did booths on open source fairs and organize local meetings.

2. Personally I would do a "Verein" but not a "gemeinnützig" (nonprofit) one. Not because of earning money, but because of Herman tax laws. I already did a "gemeinnützig" one. Its "dangerous" because you have to pay later the taxes of years (and ruin the Verein) if politics suddenly say you aren't nonprofit. And this happens in Germany. The judgements aren't logical and its a way to stop nonprofit associations (by commercial competitors or for political reasons) and this did happen more than once (not to me, but see press). At the moment the government is not in favor of open source (Scholz, Microsoft and cutting ZenDIS funding) and the new one won't be, too. In addition USA government will extend their commercial software and clouds. Open source will have some harder times compared to the last years. So I would not risk the danger of nonprofit, its not clever. Nonprofit is only important to private donors because of taxes, but I aim at business users. I would indeed even do a eG, but most people aren't familiar with this, but they all know "Verein" ;-D

[NewUserfromDE]

Regarding point 2 (tax laws Germany non-profit) e.g. see Mastodon:
https://www.golem.de/news/dezentrales-soziales-netzwerk-mastodon-ist-in-deutschland-nicht-mehr-gemeinnuetzig-2404-184629.html

[tobias9931]

Hello, or „Servus“ from southern Germany.
I am an admin and we use MeshCentral for our internal company clients.
For internal IT support and to maintain production PCs.
That's around 3.000 computers and laptops worldwide.

I have already asked Simon Smith to issue an invoice and send it to us, which we have paid for as support.
According to him, we were the first ones he wrote an invoice for.

[NewUserfromDE]

Both are possible for us, but I have not found a company that offers support for MeshCentral yet. Do you know of one?

AFAIK not yet. You can ask. And you would need to define "support".

Asking

It would be logical to look inside the community first.

• The February community meeting would be a good place to ask (!). If you can wait till then.
• Or create a separate topic here at the GitHub Discussions or at Telegram.
• Or maybe mail to Simon. But see next paragraph: Definition, because it depends.

Definition

Support is a broad field. To find someone, one needs to specify what service exactly is needed:

1. Type: a) installation support, b) operation support, c) custom development
2. Scope: a) MeshCentral server b) MeshCentral clients c) complete server (OS + app)
3. Server: a) Cloud instance b) on-prem instance
4. Reaction Time: a) (Austrian) business hours b) extended hours c) 24/7 Mo-Fr d) 24/7/365
5. Technical: environment, especially OS server, OS clients
6. Legal: support language (english?), nation of provider (e.g. Austria, EU, world wide ...), payment (e.g. bank transfer)

So to find someone it's a matter of how fast and what :D

[si458]

@NewUserfromDE i like ur definition haha
i support meshcentral instances for people who ask nicely,
i even connect into their instances if they let me and help them with issues/bugs!
im happy to do the same for anybody else but they have to know im UK time 9-5 and only a 1 man band

[marclaporte]

@esgheorghe: My company @EvoluData offers paid support for all @WikiSuite components. We have over 2 decades of experience in offering professional services for Open Source. However, our expertise/experience is more modest when it comes to MeshCentral vs some of the other components.

A paid support ecosystem for MeshCentral is a wonderful topic for the monthly community meetings: https://github.com/Ylianst/MeshCentral/wiki/Community-Monthly-Meetings

As @NewUserfromDE indicates, it would be great to determine what types of support make sense for MeshCentral users. My goal is to foster the emergence of an ecosytem of multiple service providers which all collaborate to upstream enhancements.

[NewUserfromDE]

Personal comment:

I use MeshCentral for handling my own (small) customers. So I'm a commercial user. But being an open source evangelist my goal is also like Marc explained a support ecosystem AND a strong community AND a strong funding. And national associations like I once did in Germany.

My goal is also to be a commercial provider for open source apps besides my own customers, BUT not for big instances. But maybe in the future small providers bundle forces to support bigger customers. --> For German readers: "Verbunden werden auch die Schwachen mächtig." ("Wilhelm Tell" from Friedrich Schiller) (it looses beauty in the English translation, like Hamlet when translated from the Klingon original.)

[marclaporte]

we are investigating the possibility of using MeshCentral as a replacement for our current solution on more than 15 thousand devices and are also interested in paid support.

@esgheorghe My company @EvoluData supports MeshCentral. I am in the Telegram room.

[simpsonetti]

So for me i'm a "commercial" user too, but in a way i'm working at a federal research center and my special part there are "measurement devices". They are most Windows, some linux. We can't switch all of them to MC but i'm digging and some day, they are all in MC.
So this could be around 150 to 250 Devices. It's hard to say 'cause i'm working with anarchists, eg. scientists, so they do what they want to do.
For me it's quite a pain in the ass when searching for a company, that gives us support for Software. Our GDPR, and other regulations are realy not funny.
I will talk to my boss and ask, how it is possible to donate to this project.

And yes, i'm using open source to. In my group most of them are using open source. And i think it is a good behavior, to support this.

PS: reminder for me to notice the comm-meeting end of feburary.

[NewUserfromDE]

I will talk to my boss and ask, how it is possible to donate to this project.

Moin. At the moment I think it's only possible via GitHub donations or paid direct orders to members like Simon.

In the medium term it would be (as discussed) via local associations like "Verein". This is also very important for the growth and organization of an open source project: larger projects need sub structures. Also useful for local work (press, talks, exhibitions).

This typically leads to enough critical mass so that companies offer commercial services. This is important for commercial support.

For paid development an association can be more effective, because more money flows to the developers and less to company structures like sales. And it can collect small sums from end users that are unattractive to companies. However, special custom development needs companies and can't be handled via an association.

For a German "Verein" one needs legally a minimum of 7 (committed) persons and a bit of money for formation fees. This is why I mention this topic early and steadily ;-)

If there are too few committed persons at the beginning it's also possible to found an joint association for Austria and Germany in the form of a "Genossenschaft" (Societas Cooperativa Europaea). Especially for business users, because a "Genossenschaft" has the legal job to support its members (e.g. when companies buy goods together, this is a classic business example). A "Genossenschaft" needs less people / companies (companies can be members of Verein and Genossenschaft) but more money for founding and yearly audit.

[CSW2000]

Hello
I am a computer trader (sole proprietor)
I have been running a MeshCentral 2 server under Linux a RaspberryPi 4 for more than 2 years to support my customers cost-effectively with remote maintenance.
I had been using TeamViewer for years until they became too greedy, so I had to find something new, cheaper. Meshentral2 was then welcome.
I support customers with Windows and Linux (Android)
I was able to solve most of the problems that arose myself with the videos of
Ylian Saint-Hilaire, or me help from si458 , greetings to him at this point.
It would be great if someone would open a German forum where you could exchange ideas.

1. a) Admin run a MeshCentral server with Raspi 4 - Debian Linux because of the 24/7 power costs
2. b) Commercially sole proprietors with a commercial objective
3. c) I am interested in parts of the cost. (e.g. a code signing certificate or founding a MeshCentral association (unfortunately works very cumbersome or not at all under Liunx)
4. Country Germany

[NewUserfromDE]

Hello CSW2000, nice to meet you :-)
Sorry for the late reaction, I'm busy at the moment, I will answer in more detail on another day. :-|

[NewUserfromDE]

@CSW2000 Hi again Roland, now a longer reply :)

Hardware:
Personally I find it interesting using the Raspberry Pi. I solved it via renting a small virtual server. But sometimes I experiment in general with my Pi, too. Using MeshCentral for Android is fascinating to me, does it work well? Remote screen works? File access?

Business use:
If you like to answer: Do you use MeshCentral as a computer trader to support your trade customers, e.g. after sales service or do you offer IT support in general as a second business, no matter if one bought software or hardware at your shop?

Sharing costs / Association:
Just as info - again: Ensuring a regularly funding is my main objective, so that I can use MeshCentral for business. Sharing costs for code signing certificate is a plus, because I see absolutely no sense in e.g. 100 German admins buying 100 certificates. It's also against my open source beliefs, money should be spent, but it has to be sustainable. But be warned, I don't expect something like an association soon, we're at the very beginning.

Country:
If you like, tell your state. It's NRW for me.

German Forum:
Maybe you have read/heard it already: it's not my first open source community project and I had experience with language local forums. In general they divide forces, I would not recommend them. What works are special interest groups, where it makes sense, like networking within a local area like a country for reasons of law, business, distances. What is your idea? Is your goal a forum with German language, to make it easier? Or a forum for German commercial users, to aid each other? Or a forum for German end users in general?

[NewUserfromDE]

Reminder:

It's less than 2 days till community meeting! 😃

Donnerstag 15:00 Uhr deutscher Zeit! --> https://github.com/Ylianst/MeshCentral/wiki/Community-Monthly-Meetings
@simpsonetti @fyppes @tobias9931 @esgheorghe @CSW2000

P.S.
I'm open for an online meeting in German right after the official online meeting - without recording and (at least regarding me) with voice and video. If interested just mention it during the community meeting via chat (hint: there's also a private chat option). You will probably have to reenter the room because the meeting will auto-end.

P.P.S.
I'm also open for a general after meeting (without recording). 😄
@marclaporte @Ndaboom @si458

[DaanSelen]

I mean I can help you with things, I am not German myself but I live so close to the German border (within the Netherlands) that we also treat German customers. Let us know!

[NewUserfromDE]

And yes I am open to providing some monetary value, personally a bit lower because I am early 20s and not financially set yet.

It won't get better, when one gets older. You earn more, but you have to spend more, too ;)

For open source projects small amounts can make a bigger difference than in proprietary software projects. Again I cite "Wilhelm Tell" from Friedrich Schiller: "Verbunden werden auch die Schwachen mächtig." If we have many members small amounts are sufficient. Personally my goal aren't big companies spending 4 digit numbers (except for very special features), but small sums from 5 EUR to 100 EUR.

IMHO also remote control does not need endless features, so maybe it's mainly maintaining, ensuring that remote control also works in 10 years with updated operating systems. Remote management on the other hand is a big plus, but this can be done in very little steps incrementally or by special funding events for special wanted features to get larger sums.

[si458]

It won't get better when one gets older. You earn more, but you have to spend more, too ;)

@NewUserfromDE, you clearly haven't met my boss, haha. I've been on the same pay for 5 years (if you're interested only £21k)

[NewUserfromDE]

Simon, is this yearly salary before or after taxes? If it's after taxes than this would IMHO match a German IT salary for entry-level jobs. £22,5 k should be the first goal.

[si458]

@NewUserfromDE before taxes but also remember the is only 1 of me, and only me for the WHOLE it department to look after all his companies etc

[veitw]

@si458 I really hope this is not as bad for you as it sounds to me, and I do not have any clue about salaries in the UK or whether it is common in the UK to openly discuss salaries or how bound you are to your boss, but I am very confident there must be much better paying jobs to cherish both you and your skills... Also 5 years no raise in spite of inflation sounds bad even if you did not ask for it.

[NewUserfromDE]

Dear "target group", the community meeting today had good and bad aspects regarding the focus of this thread:

Good

• it was with 23 members at peak one of the larger meetings
• it got technical, since Simon and Yilan were there, also Daan
• the members seemed to be happy with the meeting (several questions, pratically no leaves)

Bad

• it was rather short (50 min, Simon and Yilan had to go), there was no one to take over (90 min is average)
• community building was not really a topic, because of Marc missing
• I hoped for an after-meeting of german-speaking members (of this thread) - too few, too little time, too much technical problems
• I hoped for an after-meeting of community builders - too few, too little time

Outlook

Well, regarding community building I think rather in months and years than in weeks, so next try next month.
(I'm also open for special meetings besides the monthly community meetings.)

So I hope no one of the german speaking / EU target group was disappointed, this thread will continue to find them all. :o)
Next community monthly meeting is: 27. März (Donnerstag), 15:00 Uhr (local time Germany, Austria, Netherlands) !

BTW: the recording of today's meeting is already online.

[DaanSelen]

Good feedback!

[veitw]

Hi and thanks at @NewUserfromDE for inviting me to this discussion. I assume it was mentioned at the January meet-up, but I missed that one due to a conflicting fixed date.

I am from DE (NRW, Cologne area) and run MeshCentral both for personal use (support for family and friends) and at work, where MeshCentral was our primary management/support solution in combination with a stack of other open-source and commercial solutions for policy control, software management and rollout, ... but had to be replaced by a commercial all-in-one solution a few years ago when MC's macOS and Linux support got bad due to Apple's new rules and distros switching to Wayland as default. Today MC is still used as a fallback solution for Windows clients and management of some web-managed edge devices.

We are on board since the very beginning of the "new" JS-based MeshCentral. Before that we used MeshCommander for configuring and controlling/accessing AMT devices.
We also gave the "old" original .NET-based MeshCentral a try, but it was pita to get up and running on a Linux server employing Mono.

[NewUserfromDE]

@veitw

Hi Veit, I just missed you in this thread since I saw you at the monthly meeting in the past, so now it worked ;-) As you may have read I'm from NRW, too.

You already told some details regarding my questionnaire in the starting post, but I want to ask more :D

"a) admin or end user (do you run a MeshCentral server yourself)" --> check

"b) company / commercial (do you use of MeshCentral in a company or with a commercial goal)"
Do you use MeshCentral at work for internal management or for external paying customers?

"c) interested in "investing" / sharing costs (e.G. buying a code signing certificate or founding a MeshCentral Verein)"
Open and important =)

[veitw]

Hi @NewUserfromDE , adding more info:

"b) company / commercial (do you use of MeshCentral in a company or with a commercial goal)" Do you use MeshCentral at work for internal management or for external paying customers?

MeshCentral was used for internal fleet management until we switched to a commercial solution.

"c) interested in "investing" / sharing costs (e.G. buying a code signing certificate or founding a MeshCentral Verein)" Open and important =)

I regret to say but as MC is no longer regarded the management solution of choice, I do not think I could persuade mgmt to fund.

As I already wrote, I really like MC, but we use another solution now.
The primary reason MC is still used by some of us is that it is simply has a shorter time-to-start-support than the other solution where everything is a bit slower.
The secondary reason is, that MC supports OOB management via Intel MPS/CIRA, which the new solution does not support. But since the switch we even stopped buying only vPro PCs/laptop computers for Windows/Linux work stations, so importance for this also shrank and still shrinks with the purchase of any new device.

[NewUserfromDE]

Also see discussion #6490 for new lessons learned regarding the online community meetings.