3 Points on Ergonomics

[w-jablonski]

First, thank you again for your repeated help on Reddit, your invaluable writeups online, and for offering space for discussions here.

Three ideas, questions from me

1. Coming from the fact that with one-piece keyboards right hand typically sits at an angle, as the left is usually closer to ~90° due to frequent Ctrl+XCV action. Is there therefore a notion that a characters layout (especially the right hand) is meant for either a one-piece keyboard *or a split keyboard (where both hands likely sit at ~90°)? A good example is Colemak's HE stretch, arguably good for the former, bad for the latter.
2. Currently designing a layout where Mods displaced letters from lowest pinkeys (i.e. Ctrl is where X on your layout is). Get rid of Mod-taps -related complications, at the cost of higher pinkie use.
3. With Mod-taps, don't you feel holding them is tense/tight/rigid due to user being careful not to tap them -- and therefore unhealthy? That's my own (very) early impression, but could be personality-related ;-)

Thanks again!

[getreuer]

@w-jablonski thanks for sharing these points! Happy to give my 2c on these =)

(1) Coming from the fact that with one-piece keyboards right hand typically sits at an angle, as the left is usually closer to ~90° due to frequent Ctrl+XCV action.

Sorry to split this question in half. This first one especially has a lot to unpack, and I'd like to comment on this first part.

I can picture that posture and agree there's some truth to this. To be clear, this is certainly not an ergonomically desirable posture since (in what I'm visualizing) there is ulnar deviation on the left wrist.

I'd blame a tendency to have the hands this way on one-handing Ctrl+XCV. There is ulnar deviation in the left wrist to hit these hotkeys with one hand, with the Ctrl key conventionally being in the lower-left corner. It's expedient to do it that way when holding the mouse in the other hand. But it's ergonomically questionable. To avoid ulnar deviation for these hotkeys, a good trick is to map the Caps Lock key as a Ctrl key, like how the ADM-3A terminal's keyboard did, as well as other terminals from that time. That way the left wrist doesn't need to angle so much to hit those Ctrl+XCV chords.

Another misfeature deserving some blame is the row stagger in conventional keyboards. I suppose you know this complaint: row stagger is a vestigial feature from typewriters, designed this way originally to make space for the mechanisms connecting the keys to the typebars. The stagger follows the natural direction of the fingers on the right hand, encouraging the right hand to sit a slight angle. The left hand, though, is against the grain, encouraging ulnar deviation in the left wrist and making it a bit awkward to follow the columns comfortably.

Is there therefore a notion that a characters layout (especially the right hand) is meant for either a one-piece keyboard *or a split keyboard (where both hands likely sit at ~90°)? A good example is Colemak's HE stretch, arguably good for the former, bad for the latter.

Some alt layouts are published with detailed description of how they were designed. In some cases, there is explicit consideration about row-staggered vs. split ergo keyboards. But even when mentioned, it is a minor effect, mostly about the left hand bottom row keys. You may find the Angle Mod idea interesting. It's described for Colemak, but is generally applicable to other layouts, too.

Speaking of Colemak mods, the curl mod is (when applied to Colemak, though this too could be generalized to other layouts) the Colemak mod-DH layout. This improves Colemak by fixing the HE stretch and reducing LSBs in the layout, while keeping most other metrics unchanged. (Or is it really an improvement? It is debatable. I think some people don't mind LSBs while others are very much bothered. Layouts are subjective...)

(2) Currently designing a layout where Mods displaced letters from lowest pinkeys (i.e. Ctrl is where X on your layout is). Get rid of Mod-taps -related complications, at the cost of higher pinkie use.

You replace X with a (non-mod-tap) Ctrl key? That sounds plausible and not too disruptive, I think, since X at least is a fairly rare letter in English. Do you then type X through a combo, or something else?

I've wanted to avoid mod+key chording for copy and paste hotkeys on my keymap, too. My current solution is I've mapped several keys on the Voyager where the number row would conventionally be with clipboard management functions, Ctrl+V, Ctrl+A, and Ctrl+C, such that I can do them from the base layer as single key presses (visualization). This assumes of course the keyboard has a number row, and I'm not entirely convinced that these functions are used enough to deserve dedicated base layer keys, but it's pretty nice.

(3) With Mod-taps, don't you feel holding them is tense/tight/rigid due to user being careful not to tap them -- and therefore unhealthy? That's my own (very) early impression, but could be personality-related ;-)

On a regular keyboard, it's a bit unusual to hold down a letter key. Maybe this is why it feels strange? Just a speculation. Key switches with lighter actuation force might also help.

If I need to hold a key, I prefer to do it with my middle or index fingers, since these are especially strong fingers when it comes to flexion, or failing that, ring finger is pretty good too. Home row mod-taps and layer-taps work well to help me do it that way.

[w-jablonski]

Thank you for sharing your perspectives and the very detailed explanations.

You may find the Angle Mod idea interesting.

Yeah I gave up staggered. Using Idobao ID75 currently.

It is debatable. I think some people don't mind LSBs while others are very much bothered. Layouts are subjective...

Yes, dropping to bottom row too often, vs LSBs, vs jumping top-to-bottom (but bottom-to-top is maybe better?)... all sorts of personal preferences. And I actually (hopefully temporarily) messed up my hand while designing my layout, due to repetitively trying unhealthy finger positions.

If I understand you correctly, what seems to me to be a notable layout feature (right hand's intended angle) is not seen as such by others. Perhaps personal preference for LSBs just matters more anyway.

Do you then type X through a combo, or something else?

Oh no, I designed a whole new letters layout, with lowest pinkeys empty (so only 2 symbols fit in the standard 3x10 grid). Good thing is, it's apparently the first dedicated Polish+English layout out there, so others can benefit.

Ctrl on (your layout's) X allows Ctrl+XCV without stretching, which is a relief. Then immediately above that, there is the "Podium" or "WASD" arrows group, also without stretching. So this Ctrl in fact activates a Nav layer, but also registers Ctrl for the mouse. Then Ctrl+Z is immediately above Ctrl, which is comfortable (stacking ring finger on pinkey) if using the tallest and lowest keycaps for them, respectively. Then Ctrl+T is where it usually is, and Ctrl+F below that.

Then if I actually want to use it as Ctrl, like for Ctrl+R, I press Ctrl+Space+R. And to save pinkey from hurting, I can activate the same Nav+Ctrl with right thumb. This whole trickery has worked well for me for mouse+keyboard workflow.

it's a bit unusual to hold down a letter key. Maybe this is why it feels strange?

Yes, perhaps "strange" is a better word than "tense", also depending on attitude I guess.

Thank you again.

[getreuer]

And I actually (hopefully temporarily) messed up my hand while designing my layout, due to repetitively trying unhealthy finger positions.

Sorry to hear it. I had discomfort with my thumb after trying RSTHD, which has E on a thumb key. I think there's some risk like this with learning any new layout. All the typing practice is a nontrivial amount of stress on the hands.

Oh no, I designed a whole new letters layout, with lowest pinkeys empty (so only 2 symbols fit in the standard 3x10 grid). Good thing is, it's apparently the first dedicated Polish+English layout out there, so others can benefit.

That's very cool! If you haven't yet, please share your Polish+English layout on r/KeyboardLayouts. It would be welcome.

Alt layout discussion is so heavily about English language to the point that English is often just assumed. I wish there were more activity for other languages. And people do often ask about multilingual-capable layouts, which is certainly an extra challenge to design for.

Ctrl on (your layout's) X allows Ctrl+XCV without stretching, which is a relief. Then immediately above that, there is the "Podium" or "WASD" arrows group, also without stretching. So this Ctrl in fact activates a Nav layer, but also registers Ctrl for the mouse. Then Ctrl+Z is immediately above Ctrl, which is comfortable (stacking ring finger on pinkey) if using the tallest and lowest keycaps for them, respectively. Then Ctrl+T is where it usually is, and Ctrl+F below that.

Nice, I like it, that's very compact.